Bloat Again... - Page 2

Laramie has it right.  Bloat culminating in gastric torsion or splenic torsion are both highly heritable and easily traced back to certain sires.  One for example is Scot Deodatus who allegedly died of it.

GSDs that belch easily typically never develop gastric torsion.  Its the buildup of gases that causes the stomach to rise in the abdomen and then twist as it breajks loose from its genetically weak mesentery.   A GSD that belches after eating rarely wil;l bloat at all.  Alway best though  to  use feeds with no wheat, soybean or corn if possible.

Bloat and/or GDV is common in a number of breeds; the actual triggers can be myriad and specific to individuals; however the Purdue study did find a familial tendency in some lines although its transmission is still not understood.

Making a decision based on ONE incident is insufficient, more research needs to be done on siblings of the dam and sire etc.

Lots of luck finding any studies on the bloat/torsion syndrome in this breed.  If you are holding out for documented proof positive that GSD's are genetically predisposed to bloat, you are  asking for the impossible and are not going to find it. You may as well just breed the dog and hope for the best. Most who lose dogs to this disease either don't report it to the GSDCA web site http://www.gsdbbr.org or they lie about what happened to the dog.  Oh, he just died suddenly we never did figure out why..........If you log on to this web site you will see a grand total of less than 20 GSD's listed as dying from bloat/torsion. One an import, the rest Am lines. I myself know of one very well known top producing Am line GSD that died very young from bloat. It was said he ran off and was lost or hit by a car, I've forgotten which. Some of his progeny also suffered attacks of bloat, some surviving, some not. One of the dirty little secrets of the American lines GSD world.

Studies in other breeds seem to indicate that there is a genetic component involved. My own experience bears that out. I lost a 4  year old male to bloat/torsion. Not a GSD, another large working breed prone to this disease. I learned that 2 others from his litter has also bloated and his sire survived 3 episodes of bloat and was still being used at stud after he was tacked.  Had I known that I'd never have taken a dog from that breeder. Another kennel I know routinely tacks every single puppy before selling it. They have had that much bloat in their lines. I'd never use a dog for breeding after it had bloat or torsion period. In fact, IMO a dog 20 months old is very young to be bloating, I'd be giving him Gas x or a similar product everyday to try to stave off another attack. I'm sure you know that the majority of dogs with bloat will also  develop torsion if they are not decompressed in time. Fortunately you caught your dog in time. 

A stud fee is the cheapest money any breeder will ever spend. Use another dog, preferably one that has not bloated that is owned by a breeder who would tell  you if he did.

IreneM, you appear to be self counfounded in your circular doublespeak. The definition of whether a trait is genetic or environmental is whether it's rate of occurrence in progency can be increased or reduced by selctive breeding.  Why is it so hard for you to understand this? Eventually most of the GSD genotype will be mapped with high tech means, and specific polygenic locations will be identified and patented.  Then genes can be substituted to create gene combinations which produce diminishing amounts of bloat or torsion.  You are way off base asserting that gastric dilation and torsion are conformational diseases rather than genetic.  What the heack do you think determines conformation, practic running around the ring or training.  Anyone knows it is the genetics of breeedingg.  Wake up!

A number of long term intensive breeding operations provided evidence for this assertion  years ago, such Longworth Kennels and some seeing eye breeding programs.  Environment is factor in the expression of many acute diseases, but the underlying problem is genetic.  Bloat (gastric dilation) with or without intestinal torsion (rising of the gaseous ballon structure of the gut until it tears out of the mesentery, twists and then obstructs blood circulation to itself, thus producing toxicity) or the different disorder splenic torsion are all polygenic, and most likely due to a collection of at least five genes. 

Most old time breeders of GSDs know that a sure combination for increased incidence of either of these three disorders is selective breeding for large, deep chest cavity, too much length, loose ligamentation, heavy low stationed, too large and too heavy, intrinsic inability for the GSD to be able to belch after eating (one of the most important factors).  It is known by some experienced veterinarian emergency surgeons that splenic torsion is often caused by excessive jumping and twisting at the end of a kennel run, excessive fence running/"fighting" with other dogs in the adjacent kennels, or banging against the side of his kennel door when going through it or jumping down on some obstruction.  This results in bruising of the spleen, swelling and disruption of blood circulation to the organ.  Sometimes if caught soon enough, surgical opening and access and massage of the spleen to restore blood flow and color is enough and it does not need to be removed.  Some long term successful GSD breeders I know have reduced their incidence of eaither of these three disorders by careful construction of their kennels, and runs.   Many feel certain that feeding with an unduly high proportion of grains constitutes an environmental stress to the mesentary, by producing excessive gas in the stomache and intestines.

Why is it, during any discussion about health, someone always has to make a comment about american lines?

Yes, there was a problem with bloat in MANY families of american bred gsd.  You can look at pedigree's and trace 3 or 4 gen where each dog had bloat and died early (son,father, grandfather and so on).

But hasn't there been quite a few WELL KNOWN  german males  that have died young recently due to bloat?  I have been noticing a growing trend, hearing more and more german dogs having bloat young.  is this because it has been kept quite, or people just don't see it, bloat, as a major health problem in lines? Seems to me like most people view this like  the common cold, the dog gets over it ,maybe, so he goes on and is bred. I don't think it is ok to breed a dog who has bloated, especially at such a young age, if you do go ahead and breed him,  at least tell people the the sire has bloated.  I believe some lines just have a predisposition for bloat.

and another thing, HODIE, you have been quite rude here lately to people.  if they annoy you with their "ignorance" or "stuppidity" why do you even take the time to post and reply to them?  You said it was a waste of time to ask his question on this board, or a waste of time to answer it, well the only one who wasted their time was you.  yes, this person maybe naive, but I thought the purpose of this board was to LEARN.  somewhere, where breeders/trainers/owners can exchange ideas, theories, and questions inregards to their dogs and programs.  If the original poster isn't able to learn from the advise already given that is his perogative, but maybe someone else will learn or have their views changed from this thread.

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  Oh, he just died suddenly we never did figure out why..........If you log on to this web site you will see a grand total of less than 20 GSD's listed as dying from bloat/torsion. One an import, the rest Am lines. I myself know of one very well known top producing Am line GSD that died very young from bloat. It was said he ran off and was lost or hit by a car, I've forgotten which. Some of his progeny also suffered attacks of bloat, some surviving, some not. One of the dirty little secrets of the American lines GSD world.

lets face it, its a dirty little secret for the entire breed.  not just american lines.  it is breeders faults because they are the ones who dismiss bloat as a true problem, and they continue to blindly breed to these males or lines just because thats what is winning in the ring.