Maybe the UScA membership should decides on new rules ? - Page 2

This is a good place to start, but debating these things on the GSD database isn't going to accomplish anything.  Members of USA can write to the EB and BAC members, send the petitions, ask questions and voice their opinions there.  This forum is only a start, and a place to complain but in the end not get anywhere constructive with it.

molly

Sorry to disagree with John a bit here....anyone in animal rights will object to Schutzhund period, regardless of the dog appearing weak or strong. However, when a dog is weak, I will agree that it does feed the fire as the animal rights activist, and indeed the member of the general public who does not understand Schutzhund, will assume the dogs are being abused.

The point is, nothing will change until ALL members have an equal vote in the organization. And even then it is unlikely because like most Americans, we are apathetic about not only trivial things, but important things too, in all endeavors of life.

It is impossible for many clubs to send representatives to national meetings in bum f--- egypt. As you have seen from the lack of response to this most important issue, even the show line people who talk big do not have enough guts to stand up and admit that there is an issue. Why? Because so many of them would have to speak up and realize their own dogs work is faulty.But they will BS here and some tell us how good their dogs are etc. etc. etc. and sell litter after litter.  Secondly, you also do not see many of the working line fanatics signing that petition either.  I suppose that is good because otherwise the discussion degenerates into working lines vs show lines which it is indeed not about at all. But for years I have had to listen to them bad mouth showlines and here they have an opportunity started by people with no agenda as to show vs work, and they do not have the time apparently to sign. Those who do sign, are badgered or punished if at all possible.

Finally, what you see here is apathy in the general organization as a whole. No one gives and damn and the few that do pay for it by getting knocked off in the end by the few who this organization is really for and about. And I will give you a clue, it is NOT about the small clubs, or the individual member struggling to participate. It is about a few people. And they could care less what the rest of us think, except they will talk big so we pay our dues.

Face it folks, the sport is dying. A case could be made that this organization is dying. But rather than have an honest discussion about the problems and try to find meaningful ways to address those issues, nothing is done. And it will ever be the same....

Hodie,

As you know, you are not the first or for that matter only person who has either stated publicly or privately to me that nothing will change and it would be nice if ALL the members had a vote.  The reoccurring comment, "nothing will change" is rather, well upsetting to say the least.  If something is not working the way it currently is done, then change is needed. Sometimes, you find that what actually changes isn't what you wanted, but it is better than it was.  Molly is correct that discussion on a forum is NOT enough to prompt change, but it is helpful in that you reach the people that have a stake in what is going on, and what ways change needs to occur. Sometimes, someone even has a point, a valid point that makes people take notice and go Ahhhhhh, that's what this is all about.

There are a lot of issues that people are upset or concerned over, but should we not present our concerns because previously nothing changed? Sometimes, the issue(s) needs to be brought up and out so that it can be seen as an issue. If no one makes an effort then yes, nothing will change.

This is a fairly simple issue with a fairly simple change(I am told I am naive in this thought). The problem? we have rules for an event that are not able to be enforced. The fix? you either follow the rules as they are written or you change the rules to fit what has gone on because the rules were not adhered to.

If you follow the rules as they are written what happens?  If we continue as we are, not following the rules, what happens?

Someone asked me the other day, what exactly it was that we hoped to accomplish with the petition ? That was an easy question to answer.  We do one of two things, we follow the rules as they are written or we change them to fit what the sieger show has become, not what it was intended to be.

I was raised to believe the rules are the rules, and if you don't like them then you make an effort to change them.

 Your intentions Dee are honorable and a bit naive in my opinion. Try all you want. But, this is not something new. The bite work at the SS has been terrible for years. People have gotten all riled up and demanded change or enforce the rules. Has that happened? No. And further, the organization seems only to follow "rules" when it benefits them to do so. 

The fact is, no one enforces it because most people WILL NOT speak out about any important issue. We could discuss a myriad of reasons for this, but the bottom line is that even IF 10% signed this petition, what do you think will come of it? Do you really think it will be different? I personally doubt it, but if it comes to pass that something good comes of it, I will be clapping as well. No rules will be changed to fit the SS as it is. And the rules will not be enforced. 

Just because change is needed, and I agree with that on a variety of fronts with this organization and the sport as a whole, does not mean that putting ones' name to a petition will bring about that change. And with a bunch of people who don't even have the guts to sign their own name, what does that tell you?

Rules are rules, but too many people were raised to believe that if you don't like them, break them and we, as a society show time and again that there are no consequences for this.

Hodie your points are valid. However, I do not believe they will help this matter. It just gives the people with excuses not signing more ammo. IMO , we still need to try. If not, what chance will we have of some type of change? I am still trying to be optimistic about this.

 Stonehaus,

Did it ever occur to you that by others giving their considerable experience and opinions might, in fact, finally spur someone into action? Further, don't you be naive as well. If you think you guys are the only ones who have ever brought this subject, or others of great import up, you are kidding yourselves. I will be delighted if you can effect change. I just don't want you to walk away disappointed when you cannot get more than about 10% of the membership. 10% is nothing. IF people cared, this would be a much, much larger percentage who were interested in standing up. They won't, for a variety of reasons.

People who are not going to sign are not going to do so because of something any of us said. Hopefully, they will sign and sign because they believe it is a problem. Frankly, most people do not even know what a correct protection routine is, let alone how to train for it. So when they see the video, that is why so many have written here or there to ask what is wrong? Others just don't care. And plenty of others, and we know who they are, have an ulterior motive for not speaking up. It would diminish the work that their dogs do....

Well, would Captain Max Von Stephanitz sign it ?  Anyone know ?

 There should be no doubt as to the answer to the question would Stephanitz have signed something like this. But he would not have needed to do so. During his lifetime and after, if someone with his vision about the working ability of the dog being sacred was always guiding the breed and not just any person was allowed to do so without meeting certain HIGH standards, there would be no problem to begin with. But money corrupts and we all know that. So the interest for the breed diverged and now we are in a sorry state with all too many specimens of the breed.

I understand where you are coming from Hodie. I don't believe I am being naive , just hopefull.Maybe the two are the same in this case. It just angers me to watch the breed in our lifetime becoming what it is. It might be to late to stop the rolling ball once it has started down hill.  My children and dogs is what I live for.I want my children  to one day have the same breed as well.

 Stonehaus, what is that old saying "hope springs eternal". I hope for all our sakes you are right and I am wrong. I have just seen so much crap in the breed that nothing surprises me anymore, but yes, it does distress me. The ball has been going downhill for a long time, and for a lot of reasons. Just try doing GSD rescue for a year or so and see what that brings......