Gunshot test - Page 2

This must have been a breed survey not a trial.  If the dog was barking "angrily" that can be construed as too reactionary.

If at the gun shot, your dog reacted the same as most dogs do when they hear the whip, it would be too aggressive and cause for dismissal. (sorry for 3 posts, having computer problems I think!)

I agree this must have been at a Breed Survey or "show" like the Sieger; NOT at a Schutzhund Trial

This is one of many reasons that I dislike any use of the whip in bitework training. There is no need to "load" a really good dog during training.

Technically, a dog is supposed to be non-reactive/impartial to gunfire. Unfortunately, many dogs who have been around training fields where the whip is used (even with other dogs) will almost always show some sort of subtle changes in body carriage, raising of the tail, etc. IMO, a dog that merely barks without lunging is much less reactive than the dog that raises its hackles while barking.

In the show ring where there is gunfire, a normally non-reactive dog may bark because he hears other dogs barking in the ring. Of course, this is also the reason that I dislike training youngsters in "puppy groups".

This is one of many reasons that I dislike any use of the whip in bitework training. There is no need to "load" a really good dog during training.

Technically, a dog is supposed to be non-reactive/impartial to gunfire. Unfortunately, many dogs who have been around training fields where the whip is used (even with other dogs) will almost always show some sort of subtle changes in body carriage, raising of the tail, etc. IMO, a dog that merely barks without lunging is much less reactive than the dog that raises its hackles while barking.

In the show ring where there is gunfire, a normally non-reactive dog may bark because he hears other dogs barking in the ring. Of course, this is also the reason that I dislike training youngsters in "puppy groups".

Deeswolf

Correct , it was at our annual siegershow , my dog has Kkl 1 for life and she now is 5 years old. She is my best female ever in all aspects but especially temperament and character. she is very obedient and calm with all the family and friends but very vicious when provoked. She won many shows in Germany and is top V rated. Very high placed at the BSZS at youthclass females too. Made V1 in Belgium and has 11 participations all 1st place except 2 2nd and one third. 8 of them in Germany most Landensgruppen. The thing is at previous competitions she had similar behaviour and the judges didnt seem to mind some where actually impressed  somewhat by her response.So it came as a bit of a surprise to me the way she was thrown out. Now we are done with shows and give her rest and do some breeding building the future on her. She is the daghter of Ando Altemberger land and one of his best offspring. What a dog he was really!! I came across one of his sons lately and one could tell he was carrying his father's genes. For me Ando is one of the most prolific Sires of our breed and he gave a whole lot to our breed.

Atarths, Sorry I had to take some time to think this through before I responded. I tend to be very passionate in regard to this type of subject, and I tend to say things I ought not.

I am extremely critical of show line dogs, their working ability (or lack there of) and I, honestly, do not hold a lot of personal excitement for the ring. I appreciate that others do. So, with that said, please understand where I am coming from.

Due to not personally knowing your dog, I can only go by what you have stated about your dog. I can also relate my comments to other dogs I have seen, and some of my own show line dogs. In my experience, I have seen a lot of judges look the other way to the response and reaction of many dogs in the ring when the gun test is done. I have seen dogs buck, bark, growl, and lunge at the nearest person or other dog during the test, and the judge not comment or remove those dogs. I have even seen dogs cower, tail between legs, and ears back, and yet they are running the ring. A few  things come to mind when I see these reactions, and responses. 1) is it a training issue? 2) is the dog lacking correct temperament  3) does this dog really know the difference between a threat and a non-threat, which really ties into both 1 and 2.

In your last post you mention some judges saw it and "didn't seem to mind and some were impressed." I am sorry there is NOTHING about that type of behavior that impresses me. To me, it shows a lack of control, and most likely some temperament issues. That is MY opinion only (good thing I am not a judge huh?).Too often we see judges look the other way for whatever reason, be it a fondness for the line, the breeder, or some other political point.

I am sorry you are left with this confussion. You are not being given a clear evaluation of your dog. If some look the other way, or seem impressed, it is like giving the seal of approval for that type of behavior or temperament. Then when a judge accurately (according to him) evaluates your dog and dismisses it, you wonder why.

I can only offer a couple of additional thoughts, and maybe prod you to make a deeper assessment of your dog, and other dogs you see in a sieger show or other show ring. What impresses you most about a dog during the gun test? is it the dog that stands there calmly, but alert? or is it the dog who barks and lunges?

You have stated that your female is taking some time off for other endeavors. Might this be the time to determine what the true character of your dog is? maybe work on desensitizing your dog to the gun shots? It could be you haven't done enough training in the area. As stated previously, I have not seen your dog's reaction personally, so I have to go on your assessment of your dog. This is the time for you to get the answers you seem to be looking for.

I have one additional comment, Kudos to you for bringing this question to the PDB, and being open to the thoughts, opinions, and comments of others. I am not so sure I would be so brave.

Deeswolf is my hero. 

Deeswolf,

                 Yes I am sure I can correct her behaviour with training as far as barking at the shot is concerned , however she now entered our breeding program and I dont want to hassle her any longer. She has a lot of drive that's the reason she barks at the gunshot. She also barks when other dogs do protecion work , because she loves to work. I can assure you she is NEVER agressive with no reason and ALWAYS in control. Thanks for your comments, they are greatly appreciated, younger dogs will be trained more properly I wil make sure of that.

Regards,

Chris.

Araths,

I love a dog with a lot of drive, desire, determination, but I also like a dog that shows control. Allow me a moment of self promotion in regard to one of my dogs.

I have a 4 year old female, very good dog, loves bite work. Last year I took her to her one and only Sieger Show (as stated previously, I don't care much about the ring, I prefer a trial field). At both the practice and the actual performance test, I witnessed handlers allowing and actually encouraging their dogs, to bark crazily, without control. I understand why it is done, it makes the handlers feel that they have a strong dog, who has drive and can work. I was given total looks of disdain, because I had my female sitting their quietly waiting her turn. My female has an incredible bark and guard, and I will not let her tank out barking uselessly for any reason, whether waiting to go on the trial field or waiting her turn for "performance test".  I can give her the pass auf and watch her explode into serious deep barking, and shut her off just as quickly (that took a LOT of training).  She waited her turn in line moving slowly to the front, while other dogs tanked out barking at what was going on, and helpers teasing them so they would know what was going to happen. Please! a good, well trained dog, already knows, why bother to rev them up and let them tank out, just so a handler can show the crowd they have a tough dog. A dog that shows control while waiting or any other time, will also show control in other areas, such as obedience!  My girl already knew what was going on, she didn't need to bark and pull at the leash, and she  was in control through the whole "performance test"  heeling to the blind, and with one hell of a bark and guard in both the attack out of the blind and the long bite. She was in control, she stayed on the sleeve until I told her out, she immediately barked strongly convincingly, and she correctly responded to my commands of sit, fuss, and away we went.

This thread has hit upon one of my pet peeves. People who allow their dogs to behave in an uncontrolled manner. Handlers and owners seem to think that a dog who barks, lunges and such shows drive, and a desire. A few of those dogs actually probably do have that, but you can't really tell, because they have been allowed and encouraged to behave in that manner for too long, for the wrong reasons. This type of behavior carries over into the ring, because so many times, as was stated in a previous post, so many use the whip to "bring out the aggression in the dog".  Yes, the whip and the gun sound similar. HOWEVER, a dog should know the difference! A gunshot is a sensitivity test, not a measure of a dog's aggression. Plus when has there EVER been a helper in a show ring ??  If you can do obedience with gunshots and not have the dog react negatively, you should be able to have the dog react correctly in the ring when the gun shots are fired.

I think sometimes people forget tracking, obedience, protection are ALL obedience exercises, and believe it or not, the ring is also an obedience exercise, and should be entered into as an obedience exercise. When I go to a sieger or other show I watch the dogs behavior while they wait their turn. The calm dog, in most cases usually the working line dog, or the dog that is well trained in the work, and not just the ring, is the dog who exhibits the best work in the performance test.

My comments are not directly related to  your situation, however, I just wanted to offer another opinion and comment on what is very common in the show world. Just because it is common, does not mean it is correct.

Here is to never being disquialified, in the ring or a trial field for an out of control dog! Cheers!