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by sueincc on 23 March 2008 - 00:03
If I am understanding this correctly, that's the crux of the matter, you can't depend on a lab to prove a GSD is a GSD. Many times and depending on the lab, DNA results on a purebred may indicate other breeds because all breeds are the result of mixing different breeds together. So, if the results say there is a different herder (for example) in your dog, it doesn't necessarily mean the dog is not a pure GSD. The best they can do is say your dog is by Dog A and out of Dog B.
by hodie on 23 March 2008 - 01:03
Sueincc has it right. When I have time I will post the four main ancestor groups for canines as determined now by DNA analysis. It is very interesting and you would be surprised to learn what dogs are closest to the GSD.

by jletcher18 on 23 March 2008 - 02:03
i think this is the one you are talking about hodie.
http://www.genome.org/cgi/content/full/15/12/1706
look at fig.2 it has the break down of the groups and what dogs are in each
john
by hodie on 23 March 2008 - 02:03
John,
Yes, that is one of the latest and very interesting articles that has come out this last year or so on canine genetics. Thanks for posting that. I have the paper, but am studying at the moment for an exam....

by CaptMike on 23 March 2008 - 02:03
Aye! T' report of me bucko's GSD said his GSD contains dog A and dog B and also contains distant traces of dog C and dog D. If me posted the breeds of dogs A, B, C, and D, me be almost certain all would be very surprised aye.
A new test unveiled late last month by Virginia-based Mars Veterinary uses DNA from blood samples taken by veterinarians and sent to a lab in Lincoln. Within four to six weeks the genetic puzzle is solved for the dogs' owners.

by Bob-O on 24 March 2008 - 00:03
Our favourite breed is less than one-hundred twenty (120) years old, In the early days of the breed the dogs were selected for having a physical structure suitable for the work and the mindset to serve man. In essence, the GSD was developed solely as performance-oriented dog rather than a dog developed to conform to a strict physical description. The breed was begun with various dogs gathered from different areas of greater Germany and the performance standard existed long before the physical conformation standard.
So, it is without doubt that one could find inside the heritage of our favourite breed, other dogs such as collies and other old-world herding breeds plus the occassional wolf, etc.. I guess the big question is; how far back in the ancestry are dog breeds "a", "b", and "c"?
We have all heard rumours about eastern European breeders occassioanally introducing a wolf into their breed lines, but I have never seen this substanciated. And util now there was no reason to ponder this legend as there was no solution that would prove the theory (rumour, in this case)-only speculation. DNA analysis does give us a means to map ancestry, and while we can define "who/what" we still cannot define exactly "where" and "when."
So, what i am saying is that if we look deeply into the heritage of any of our prized dogs we may be disappointed, lest we remember that one-hundred twenty (120) years ago the ancestors of our breed were just dogs of questionable and/or unknown parentage from any specific dog breed. They were dogs who possessed the physical structure and mental capability for the work they were to do.
You may have heard me say that our GSD is a "man-made" breed of short history. I did not invent that idea/statement, but I find it to be proveable and wholly accurate. The GSD as we know it now began to appear about one-hundred (100) years ago from the fruits of selective breeding-first for performance and this was naturally followed by the desire for uniform structure.
We now have similar mapping for us humans, and we can determine our ancestry from various peoples as well as certain people from whom a DNA sample has been proven. Some of you may remember the news a few months ago that a certain middle-aged black man living in the U.S.A. was determined to be a direct descendent of Ghengis Khan.
So...........begs the question; do we really want to know?
Regards (and good post Cap'n Mike),
Bob-O
by VKFGSD on 27 March 2008 - 04:03
I think if you look up the info on the Mars test you will find that they have done a statistical insignificant number of dogs and I for one would put their test and results under the label of junk science pandering to the masses.
Re the genome "tree" that was developed a couple thoughts. Again a very small population sample was used and based on that GSD were put in the group with Mastiffs and NOT with any other herding dogs AND specifically supposedly NOT related to other breeds like the Belgians and Dutchies which there is a fair amount of histrorical info to suggest a relationship. Now which do you believe. For me it's not the test.
Another problem w/ DNA tests is shown w/ the "panda" gsd. They tested mom dad and daughter and determined that daughter was from mom and dad and on that basis made the statement that there was no cross breeding that caused the color pattern and ergo therefore it was a spontaneous mutation. While all the dna proved was that mom and dad produced daughter. It is quite possible there was a cross - accidental or on purpose somewhere in the back lines - but if one does not look for it or test for it you will never know.
So the question always have to be on the scope and limitation and statistical and true scientific validity of the test. There is a lot of junk science out there that no one rigorously questions.

by steve1 on 27 March 2008 - 09:03
Capt Mike
I do not think your friend need to be worried about this type of DNA testing, I would rather get DNA test done to see that the Sire and Dam are as stated
Everything evolves from different types of Dog to get to the present one what ever the so called pure breed
You can look at all G.S Dogs and they look as different as Chalk and Cheese but they are G.S's
My two look completly different from each other, but they are bred from generations of the breed, It is just simply the lines they are bred from which makes them look different
Regards Pedigrees i do not think anyone need look back beyond the Grandparents of a Dog or anything else what ever species Birds included, Once you get to that stage of the G.P's there are too many other factors to dictate the current dogs lines, in other words its like doing the football pools
Steve
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