Herding and Schutzhund - Page 2

Hitting the dog with the crook is relatively rare in SV style herding since the sheep herder is normally too far away from the dog to do that. The shovel end of the crook is used to toss clumps of grass and dirt in the dog's direction to get his attention. Sometimes you throw the crook in the dog's direction, that's true, and you might even hit him with it once your aim improves.

This is an intelligent breed. There is such a fundamental difference between having a 6' crook thrown at you and being tapped with a stick in SchH that a good dog really doesn't confuse the two concepts and gets stick shy because a crook landed on him.

Not all dogs are good at herding just like not all dogs are good at SchH or agility or swimming or whatever. But there are many who train in several disciplenes at the same time and do well in all.

My impression of what happened with the crook, was that it was not thrown at the dog, but the dog was actually hit with it.  I wasn't there to see the herding training.  The handler explained to me that the dog was introduced to sheep, I assume in a pen and corrected by the herder (not the handler) with the crook for being too aggressive with the sheep.  These corrections were done by being hit with the crook.  I didn't think of asking if the crook was thrown or in the herder's hand, the implication was that it was not thrown.  Being the handler and dog were new to herding I don't think the handler was giving the corrections with the crook.  I am very confident that the new handler would not have been able to throw the crook with any kind of accuracy. 

This was a nice high drive working line dog and I think the issue with the stick was not from a crook being thrown at him.  I agree with you on that point.  But, I don't think in the initial training the crook was thrown, the dog was hit.  And even for a strong intelligent dog, a correction can carry over to other areas of training.  If the dog learns that unacceptable behavior means getting hit with a stick(a correction), then it will certainly view the stick the same way in bitework.  The dog had to learn that the stick in SchH was not a correction and took some work to get over it.  Perhaps, where you do your herding they don't hit the dog with the crook.  Here they did. 

Just a response to the question of whether or not a dog can do both sports.  Like any other kind of training you need to analyze the training methods and see if there are any conflicts between the two.

Jim

Yes, I agree for the most part. In anything we train it comes down to 'what are we teaching the dog' or, put another way, 'what is the dog learning'. SV style herind training is scarce in the US ans I would wager to say that most of us who've trained in that discipline used the same trainer. I, personally, have never seen a dog actually hit with the crook. I've seen the crook land on the dog, once thrown.

It's possible that a dog might become afraid of the motion used by a handler (or helper) during stick hits, the raised arm and then the discomfort. In my mind, they don't so much become shy of the instrument but rather of the physical motion preceding the discomfort. But I'm not sure about that. I'm thinking of my young dog who's afraid of the fly swatter even though we have NEVER used a fly swatter to correct any of our dogs. Turns out, it's the correction tool of choice at the breeder's home.

So yes, in that regard a correction does carry over to other parts of the dog's life.

In our experience with the crook correction vs helper stick hits, we saw no correlation in our own dog. He didn't go out for a SchH title, so maybe he's not even a good example to use.

There are two people in the mid west now training tending dogs.  Mary Weir in Kentucky outside of Lexington.  She has Briards but has worked a number of GSDs and Diane Wright in Balttle Creek MI.  Both could help you evaluate the dog.  Someone with a good concept of what tending should look like should be able to help you.  The skill set for AKC C course is the same as HGH.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the training as it is quite instinctive for GSDs.

I work tending dogs in Massachusetts and Carol Weigand works dogs in CT.  Not only have both of us titled dogs with HGH a number of our students have also been successful.  Hopefully the Texas group will hold an HGH in the Spring of '09.

I do think the dogs could have a conflict with the crook and the stick, though not for long.  The crook is used as an extension of your arm in tending.  Yes sometimes it is tosseed at a dog not minding the border.  But as it is also used to signal the stays and direct the dog, it is not very useful to have a dog afraid of the crook so it is usually only used to surprise the dog in the beginning and make him believe that  he is not to cross that border.   It is never thrown once the dog is solid on the border.

The dogs are aggitated after the HGH, the a bite is not required.  Usually the helper has a stick so mking the dog afraid would not be very useful.

Susan