Genetic Predisposition Aye - Page 2

Das Kapitan RR, your are a very sharp German Pirate.  Keep it up and I'll give you a free plug for your business.

I agree with what the bold captain has said

I used to be a genetics is everything (and certainly the Minnesota twin studies appear to support that in many respects) but time in grade teaches you to keep an open mind. When I visit a friend who has cable tv, I like to explore the educational channels down in the 9000 range. Watched this wonderful presentation one day by a neurobiologist from I think Univ of Washington about the development of brain structure. The new types of scans such as the PET and Spectra are allowing them to study the brain in motion not as a static entity. What they have found is that in learning neurons are either pruned or grown and that this is a continuous process thru our whole life - tho much more rapid in the young. The speaker ended her presentation by saying that the eons old argument of biology or environment was over - that it is both acting in conjunction that creates the organism.

While I found this fascinating I think the jury is still out. My personal belief is that some things are hard wired and others are more amenable to the potentiality of change. On the change side, I offer her presentation and also the phenomena that we have all see in dogs - a dog badly trained by one handler that accomplishes the Worlds with another or the reverse situation. The potential is there but a different environment affected the expression. On the side of hard wiring I offer several thoughts- the twin study mentioned,the passing on of familail traits in dogs AND humans ( how someone cocks their head or has a particular tic etc). For me a light bulb moment was when I saw a picture in Max's book of 3 GSds at the turn of the century playing with a hedgehog. I had a GSD that was a rock hound and she would play "soccer" with her feet with boulders and pieces of concrete. It was the exact body/leg posture of the 3 GSDs in the picture. Finally I suggest you view this PBS program - Secrets of the Dead Amazon Warrior Women. Note the girl's picture on this page -http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_amazon/clues.html - her parents are Mongolian. It turns out her DNA is a virtual exact match for a several thousand year old Amazon discovered in a grave. To me it suggests a syndrome or matrix that can survive hidden in the DNA for generations - perhaps part of that Dark DNA that Preston mentioned and certainly in terms of this child this is a genetic or hard wired trait - environment has nothing to do with it.

"Maybe the old GSD breeders of 100 years ago were right when they felt that environmental stresses could modify genetics of puppies in the womb before they were born and after. " I think we do not give  enough credit to our ancestors abilities and use of observation and intuition. 

By the way, one of the alternative theories about "junk"dna is that it is NOT inactive ancestral junk left behind but genes that are waiting for our biology and brains to catch up and know how to use them - that the ability to morph and change(dare I say evolve) was built into the blueprint ahead of time. There has been some reserach done in this direction with a subgroup of long term survivors of aids (w/o meds) who seem to have "activated' or had activated genes that most of us do not.

"Not to sure about importance of bloodlines where character traits are involved though - those studies I've seen seem to show that those like work ethic and obedience etc are very difficult to select for (if barely genetic at all!); " The early Humphrey studies suggested that but I think the biggest problem in accruately determining the inheritability is the definition of what you are selecting for. And if you do not have a consensus of what it is you are selecting for you can not then measure the progress. We use words loosely and lightly in the dog world. Neurolinguistic programming has already shown that with simple words like snowflake or fight, 2 different people can ahve radically different interpretations based on factual versus emotional perceptions. So to some snowflake means a snowflake and to others it suggests cold or fear or hardship . Fight to me suggests two boxers in a ring while to my friend it suggests anger or an atmosphere that you can cut with a knife. So how much more difficlut is it to be clear about what we are selecting for when we are talking behaviors and drives which can be very complex. Plus what some might call obedience drive, I might call willingness or biddability ( I actually persnoally distinguish between all 3 of these and define each differently). The other problem I see in determining the inheritability of traits is who is doing the research. Often it is academics with no true dog knowledge and even some of the programs that one would think have knowledgeable dog people ( guide dog schools, K9 programs) are often sorely lacking in personnel with true dog knowldege/ability and those valuable traits of observation and intuition.

Some traits I see as hard wired - body sensitivity, willingness, pack drive. Some traits that I can see being influenced by environment but also know they have a very very strong genetic basis - longevity ( it can be very successfully selected for); reproductive traits ( bitches often mimic their mothers in terms of frequency and duration of cycles, breeding days, # of puppies and sometimes even the split of sexes produced.)

Finally there is a growing body of research that suggests many diseases including some that we have in the past thought of as genetic are in fact either the result of an insult ( either injury, toxin or infection) Check out Polly Metzinger's (sp) "danger" theory. Some suggest that there may be a genetic predispostion which is only expressed if the right "insult" occurs and at the right time (identical twin where one becomes schitzophrenic(sp) and the other does not).

That's the most perceptive and interesting post I've read in at least a week ;-)

For me genitices is everything, but saying that they are completely worthless if the Mother or Dam of the said product and in this case G.S Pups is not got into the very best possible  condition for breeding before she goes to the Dog, Plus the after care of feeding etc will pre determine what comes out of the Bitches womb

What goes into the Bitch of female is what comes out. So they must be super condition before conception takes place and whist the pups are developing,

On the BBC Horizon documentary thread there was a program entirely given over to epigenetics. I can't say I totally followed & understood all the points but it seemed to imply that the way an ancestors life was led, the food eaten, the emotions experienced etc can have an effect on their genes & hence their progeny.

That genes could have a memory is interesting stuff & muddies the breeding waters even more. Anyway here's a link for those that may be able to get more out of it than me!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/ghostgenes.shtml

Good thread Cap'n.

AandA

AandA

Or the ancestors themselves had the same genetic genetic predisposition that they passed on, hence the genes would naturally be in their progeny.  Even if it were the very first man, he would still have genes to pass on without.  Therefore it would not be the act of living their life that was passed down but the genes that predisposed it to be emulated. 

Epigenetics is the antithesis to Genetic Determinism.  Simply put, a dog is more than the sum of its genes, but moreso on how those genes are expressed.

"The genetic code is the piano, the epigenetic code the tune."

Conrad Waddington originally defined the term Epigenetics as 'the interactions of genes with their environment that bring the phenotype into being'.  I point this out, because today the term is being used in an overly-broad sense, to incluce generational heredity of these changes in the genome function, which is actually a subset of Epigenetics more appropriately termed as Transgenerational Epigenetic Inheritance.

The DNA isn't altered of course, but the "epigenetic code" for gene expression can be hereditarily transfered on a cellular level.  These "instructions" may even skip generations from being expressed outwardly in phenotype, and may altogether disappear within a few generations.