CONTRACT LAW - Page 2

great tool in the industry and that is what we would create when this is completed.

Please keep this thread going!

hodie,

I think that an impartial arbitration board is an excellent idea. 

 Hi folks,

I am enthused as I had mentioned such an arbitration board several times here without so much as anyone saying they were for or against it.

Many of you know me from my writing. Some of you do not like my position on training, or perhaps my not appreciating people simply breeding dogs for the hell of it. None the less, I think most who know me here and personally do know that I have done GSD rescue for 10 plus years. Though a few kind souls have donated a few bucks here or there, and I have one donor who goes to estate sales and donates towels, and other useful items that can be used in my kennel, I have funded the rescue and done the work alone. In some years when I had a steady income I can document spending in excess of $30,000 per year. I have seen and heard it all. 

Sometimes I do believe buyers are unrealistic and frankly, more than a few of them are ignorant of the breed, have no clue what they really would do with a GSD, have no knowledge of what is and is not a good dog, and certainly, all too many have no clue about what they should pay, what paperwork they should receive etc. Many do not understand that sometimes there really are legitimate reasons paperwork is delayed.

There are many fine breeders, large and small. These are the people who really will turn someone down and NOT sell a dog when it does not fit the needs of the client. These are the people who will adhere to minimum standards of due diligence in what to provide and how to educate the potential buyer of their dogs/pups. But there are some out there, including a few who post here and on some of the major boards who are taking advantage of people.

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As well, there are people doing training who don't properly care for dogs in their custody. There are people selling all types of things who are simply doing it for the money. Any arbitration board can only do so much. But I believe it CAN work given that it would be populated with adjudicators who will look for FACTS, not he said, she said. With a high standard required for evidence, we will quickly throw out baseless or unsupported claims. We will ask both or all parties to present their side and we will strive to MEDIATE a successful resolution. That is all we can do. However, in the case of some blatant misconduct on any side, we will set the record straight. 

I have mediated behind the scenes many times. My interest is in the breed and in helping people, from all endeavors, have successful relationships with dogs/pups. To this end, I think the board would serve as much as a resource as anything. We can and will solicit FAQs to post on what paperwork one must eventually receive from a variety of transactions, be they a dog purchase or a training agreement, for example. We can post an FAQ about contracts and explain that any person has the right to create and/or use a given contract. But ALL contracts should probably address certain issues and I will leave that to the original poster and us to come to some agreement on what those issues would be. 

It should be crystal clear that it is NOT the intent of the board to suggest or require any breeder, for example, have a certain refund or replacement policy. That is between breeder and buyer, but yes, perhaps an FAQ could be written to suggest the pros and cons of such policies.

To ensure absolute integrity of the board, if a successful mediation could not result (and that would obviously mean all parties would have to enter into that mediation with an open mind and heart), in order for any "unethical", problematic or "wrong" doing to be found, the entire 5 board membership would have to find so. 

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Breeders could agree, in advance, to being part of the arbitration board and, in return, we would list them. If any board member was somehow part of any kind of dispute, they would be REQUIRED to recuse themselves and an alternate appointed in their place.

What I will absolutely guarantee is a fair, impartial group looking at all facts. If there are none, and it is a he said, she said type of situation, we will not entertain the matter. There will be a fee, as yet undecided as to amount, for both parties to involve themselves. How such fees would be collected, handled and ultimately spent is under consideration. I assure you all, this is not some hair-brained scheme to make money. It is about trying to find a legitimate way for people with questions about how and from whom to buy might be given unbiased INFORMATION that would allow them to make better decisions. There are organizations that should be doing this. There are code of ethics that are a joke in many organizations. The bottom line is that no one has been willing to help clean up the problems we are continually hearing about. I believe such a board of arbitration might help the situation and that is why I propose it. I would welcome ideas as to how it might be fashioned. For the moment, I can use part of my web site to host the material, but at a later date, I would like to get an independent site.

This is an opportunity for the many good and ethical and caring individuals who are on this site and others to do something positive to help the situation. I look forward to hearing ideas, and I thank the original poster for his/her offer to look at the issue of what is and is not an appropriate contract between buyer and breeder. In the end however, it will remain a personal decision. If one truly understands how to do their homework, at least such a site will give them most, if not all of the tools to make decisions about how to do business in the GSD world and not be ripped off.

Sharyn Baker

DaKine K9, that would be great.  I haven't bred a litter yet but I would be very interested.

I guess I'm the odd man out here, I'll try not to be rude.

Court decissions do not always produce moneys, and lawyers love to draw things out as a way of wearing down the opposition.  All the time the clocks running and the money goes to whom?

Sorry but in the three times I have had to use a lawyer I have never come out ahead.  I've never met one I trusted and never met one I liked.  Two of the three did great harm to me.   Its obvious I dont like lawyers period.  You talk about job security, lawyers have it.

Unless there is real money involved, tens of thousands, a lawyer will cost you more than you can gain.   33% for out of court settlements and 50% if it goes to trial. 

The scammers arent afraid of lawyers.   If someone screws me over its between me and them period.

A contract makes a nice guide line for each persons concerns but its not a guarantee..   Its better to make a wise choice of who to do business with the first place and when in doubt just say no..  check people out before you get into these situations.  a fool is born or is it a sucker is born every minute.

I still say keep your contract simple and let a lawyer look it over.   Find your lawyer on your own.  Dont let one search you out and offer some kinda deal..  moneys alway what they are all about..  show me one who does pro bono.  then look closely for the motive behind it.

Sorry... guess that was a little rude.     I dont care, I have my reasons.   JMO..

Two Moons,

I do not disagree with the majority of your post.  It was not rude but fairly accurate.  Not all Lawyers are created equal.  You happened to have negative experiences, however I am not out to defend my profession.  This is not what this is about.   You mention Pro Bono, well this is what this type of project would amount to.  I am offering to do this "for the public good" with the help of others who want to get involved.  If you took this as a solicitation from me to drum up work then you have truly been mistaken.  Trust me, I should be out training my dogs in my free time.  Those who know me and hopefully those reading this thread can understand what the true intentions behind this are. 

With that out of the way, several have PM'd me and have shared with me their contracts.  Thank you to those who have also offered to do legal research as well.  Instead of posting them all, I will start with an outline containing key clauses and ask for feedback.  Once we have the framework done, I will begin inserting the relative language and of course open it up for discussions.

I dont use a contract, but then again I dont breed as a business.   I know that makes a big difference to some who do.

I'll give this the benifit of the doubt as I'm not in need of a contract.   Its easy to see that some of the members need help.

I hope you can help those who need it..

I'm sure you will understand that if we met I would know you as an individual and we might like each other.

But if we were brought together for legal reasons...   well I covered that already.

Its not just lawyers either, its the system as a whole.   Thats a whole other debate.

Have at it and lets see how this evolves.

later.

There are unethical people in all walks of life. There are unethical doctors, mechanics, breeders, trainers, and yes, lawyers. There is also no reason why a lawyer, or a vet, or a breeder for that matter, should not be compensated for their work or what they have to sell. And I know a lot of lawyers and many of them do a lot of pro bono work, just like many of the vets I know.

No, a contract does not solve everything. But from time immemorial they have served to clarify the responsibilities, requirements and entitlements between people, companies etc.  wishing to do some sort of business together. A clear contract SHOULD be an aid towards that understanding. As well, a contract can help someone who does not have a lot of experience ASSUMING they READ and UNDERSTAND the contract.

The average reading level of the US citizen is very low. That fact, coupled with the fact that in the GSD world so many try to do business with people in foreign countries, especially Germany, where there are language barriers, it is no wonder there are so many misunderstandings.

Even with a contract, yes, things can go awry. And that is exactly why talking at great length and asking lots of questions with someone you are considering doing business with is a good idea. What is clear is that so many of the people here who get screwed did NOT get a contract and therefore, they did not have a good understanding of the business they were transacting.