Using a ball to out for sleeve - Page 2

For example........http://www.des-champs.com.mx/

It does not have a direct link but....

Go to the "video page"

Go to "Machos des Champs" and click on A'Manchas de Calvair Aux Aciacas

Then click "training video"

This demonstrates using the ball to teach the out.

I guess it would depend upon your trainer and decoy and what you are training your dog for (sport or work, and yes there is a difference).  What have you tried to get your dog to "out" from a bite?  Do you have a good consistent and firm foundation for the "out" before you started bitework? How has your dog learned the concept of "out" in non-bite situations, like "outing" a toy?  Have you had to use another toy to get your dog to "out" in these other situations?  If you have used a toy all the time in non-bite situations, then you best head back to the basics and make your dog understand "out" before you start back in bitework. And yes, there has to be consequences for not "outing" (and no, I don't mean being heavy-handed, just fair and firm).  Good luck.

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maybe you should read where I wrote that I use a ball to teach the out with another BALL.  I don't recomend it with the sleeve or suit.  I have seen lots of people us a ball or tug to teach a call back, and you could use a ball to teach the out off the helper if you wanted, just realize you might have to work on bringing the focus back to the helper after the initial stages are taught. 

I have no website or links or videos.  My out is solid before the dog is ever outed off a decoy. 

Steve is totally correct in reference to serious work for serious dogs. If the situation is life or death then there is no place for "drives" or balls. The distraction of the ball will actually put avoidance into the dog. This will show when the dog and or handler come under extreme stress.

one of my german friends said it perfectly, "out (aus) means nothing in the mouth." 

a game of two ball or substituting a ball for the sleeve can be useful, but please call it what it is and understand what you are doing and why.  it certainly is NOT training the out.

pjp

well if it doesn't train the out, I sure end up with one beautiful out under pressure, stress, or having fun.  I guess when I say "aus" and nothing is in the mouth, please tell me, what am I training?

nobody ever said trading a ball for a ball or sleeve for a ball was the end of training

how do "real" trainers train it

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funny, my "tennis" ball dog doesn't focus on sleeves, tugs balls etc in the presence of a threat.  I must have done something wrong while I wasn't really teaching an out using a ball.   I must have screwed up somewhere, and the real kicker is she isn't playing while she's engaged either.

and most serious trainers or at least people with half a clue in dog behavior and modification know that play is often just a training ground for "fight".  Have you ever watched a pack of puppies playing, all their play is building for "fight" and securing food later on.  why would teaching an out in play not be able to carry over in an out in "fight"???  Because I gotta tell you, it seems to work for a hell of a lot of people.

Well this is getting fun so I will keep going with it.

Steve,

If we watched the same video, I believe the dog was biting the decoy the whole time, until the whistle and the ball, so how exactly was he "utterley ignoring the decoy" and completly focused on the ball?

As for training a "real" dog to out using this method, I will aggree to an extent, that this is probably not the best way to do it all the time, BUT as other people have stated, different strokes for different folks and different methodes for different goals. I would use this methode to TEACH the out with every dog.

Now here is where most of the "theories" about the ball causing avoidance or keeping the dog from focusing on the decoy hold no water, not even a drop.......

In French Ring, where this technique is used the most, the dog has to be 100% totally focused on the decoy. Why, do you ask? Because if the dog is in a guard or escort, if he/she is not totally focused on teh decoy, the decoy is not only allowed, but instructed, to take off. Dog loses a point for every meter the decoy gains on the dog. If the dog does not remain with the decoy, the dog is removed from the field. So I don't think it would be in any Ring Sport competitiors best interest, to do something that would cause the dog to lose focus on the decoy. They would be losing alot of points if they did.

If one knows anything about the utilization of the technuque through actual use of it and not one's unproven "hypothisis" they would know this. I love it when people shoot off a theory or belief when there is actual proof all over the place that their "theory" is incorrect.

So how does one train for this? Easy, when the dog learns the out, using this technuiqe which is done with zero compultion, the dog is then switch to the decoy. Then when the dog is solid on the out of the decoy for another toy, the toy may be removed systematically and the reward becomes another bite on the decoy.

Since the dog already knows if he or she outs, they will get another ball or bite, there is no conflict or avoidance, and the dog needs minimal correction to transfer the out to the person because they continue to get a bite on the decoy for a correct out. So again, no conflict, no avoidance, and no loss of focus because the dog knows they will be getting another bite, which is exactly what they want.

Now let's talk about a real life situation, if you have a strong dog that is in a real fight, do we really think they are going to let go of the screaming fighting bad guy to look for a ball? Now remember I said strong dog. Nope sorry, they will not. Like I said, the only problem you will run into is in a static bite situation. If the decoy goes static, which we should all know does not happen in "real life" the dog may go looking for the ball or tug reward. So again this will only manifest itself in a training or sport situation with equipment and is easily worked through with proper decoy work.

Cheers