breeders and schutzhund - Page 2

AIR-

We get old.  We get broke down physically.  Some day I know I'll be one of those people paying someone younger and stronger to title my dogs. Hopefully that won't be for quite awhile, ten or more years I would hope, but one bad slip on the ice, a broken hip, and my career as a trainer could be OVER. I sure hope people don't discount my abilities completely when that time comes...

Just food for thought.

SS

"So many believe that if you buy a puppy from a Schutzhund trainer that you will end up with a world champion, when in many ways you are basically purchasing what they do not want. "

I don't think anyone feels that purchasing a dog from a trainer means that pup will automatically end up as anything, let alone a world champion,  hence the old chestnut "puppies are a crapshoot".  I do think buying a pup from someone who is knowledgable in the sport and is knowledgable about bloodlines and breeding absoloutly stacks the deck in favor of getting a better schutzhund prospect that from other  so called "breeders".

As to the 2nd part of your statement I'm pretty sure in a uniform, well bred litter, the pups the breeder isn't interested in keeping are usually  going to be a heck of a lot better than the best from breeders who have no clue what they are doing,  Gosh, if the 2nd part of your statement was true, the only podium dogs would be those owned by those who bred them, and that's just not the case.  You can be sure, though that the overwhelming majority of podium, world class dogs came from breeders who know schutzhund - and not from some jerk who says "schutzhund quality" on their website but has not ties to the sport, and breeds unproven dogs. 

There are many good reasons for a breeder to send a dog out for a title, rather than to do it herself/ himself.

A club will allow it's members to train only so many dogs.  My generous club will let one person train two dogs, or a family can train three.  But several people in other clubs across the USA have told me that they are only allowed to train one dog.  Some are not allowed even to bring a different ONE dog at different training sessions, some are told they have to work with one specific dog and that's it. 

I am currently training two dogs, both BHOT, but I wish I could work with one of my older titled dogs (Vinette von Karthago) so she can teach me some good pointers.  She's potentially a "points dog" and I'd like to work with directing and controlling a super dog who already knows her stuff in SchH3 and FH, so she can teach me, rather than me teaching a green dog and being taught, myself, at the same time.

Sending a dog out allows you to keep two promising individuals for your program, (possibly from breedings that cannot be repeated ever again, hence the desire to keep two at one time).  You KNOW these two dogs you produced are not someone else's culls from their breeding program.  You didn't have to pay several thousands to purchase (with the associated risks involved) a dog with a title already on her to find out that through deeper association and working with the newly purchased dog that, temperment and drives-wise, the dog isn't as good as your own pups you are raising yourself. 

Veronica

Hello Air, very good question, thanks for post something worth commenting on.

I find it very difficult to believe a breeder can evaluate his or her dogs without working them or seeing them work.  During this evaluation the breeder can determine whether a potential stud is handler hard, handler soft,  is the dog handler aggressive because of weak nerves or is it dominance, is the dog a points dog or is it patrol K9 worthy.

Bloodlines and Pedigrees.  The more you know the better off you are.  What is more important is to find out what kind of dogs are in the pedigrees beyond the titles.

Everything is a secret.  No one wants to tell you what has taken them years to acquire until you are considered worthy.  Like every worth while endeaveur you have to pay your dues.

The part about limitations and dogs being worked is understandable to a point.  But hell if a TD is going to tell me which dogs I am allowed to work.  Thant is just a control issue.

Kyle

at my club you can only allowed to work one dog if you have titled a dog to a sch3.  if you cant train one dog how can you train 2 or 3.  i suggest to those that want to train several dogs to go to a training group where they pay per session and per dog.

From experience i can say that most new people done stick w/ the sport, so why should the helper other people in the club spend time helping someone w/ 2 or 3 dogs just to have them decided schutzhund isnt for them.  We also will only allow you to train one dog if you do not train regularly.

im all for training as many dogs as you like, but not at the expense of other members and my sanity...

In order to breed  workable dogs  a very good understanding of drives , bloodline and a clear head is a must.  Kennel blindness will kill !!

I would prefer a breeder that has trained and titled dogs and dogs from their own breeding program further more dogs out of that kennel  that have been successfully titled from beginner to advanced trainers. Most of all a breeder MUST have a good understanding of bloodlines  just because dogs are titled and may be world champions does not make them suitable for every female ! Top competitior does not automaticly equal =knowledge in bloodlines either !

Keep in mind a breeder can only give you a very good prospect for the work what you do with it and develop it is a different ball game. It is also a very hard task for any breeder to get their very promising pups  in capable hands  that will spend the time in training and get the dogs on the trial field !! many times good dogs never make the field  do  to the limited expirience of it's owner or lack of interest  or are ruined by inexpirienced training programs . I find myself keeping pups back for some time until the right person comes along  or give them to estaplished people in my region !

I have never send a dog out to be titled/ raised  but seriously thinking about it  to it due to several good dogs out of my breeding program  I might just have to , to continue the line . This in it self will be a task too  because I  am seeking very good to excellent imprinting / training up to SchH1 or with title . Not a  wam bang thank you mam job such as a 8 weeks later ScHH1 title in the book but the dog don't show it  LOL .

Breeding good dogs one must also have passion , commitment and dedication and is willing to take the bad with the good. NO breeder in the world will produce a 100 % sucess rate in their breeding programs !!

Pia

Lost my last post due to a broken connection so I'll start over.

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments about breeders doing their own training.  I have trained my own dogs but due to several broken bones last year during the course of training my ability to train a dog from puppy to title is limited now.  That being said, I am sending a youngster overseas to be trained but I know that this dog has what it takes to title because I started her as a pup.  Then I'll take her to a SchH2/3 when she comes back and I have the time.  I don't think it's quite a black and white situation with breeders training their own.  The best case scenario is that breeders train and title their own but it's not always possible for any number of reasons. 

When it comes to showline puppies with drive that's another story.  I have two 10 week old males who have wonderful drives but the phone is not exactly ringing off the hook.  I hear so much moaning and groaning about showlines with no drives and yet there seems to be little demand for that.  I've already turned down one man who simply wanted a pet and yet I knew that this little guy would quickly become a destructo dog in a sedentary environment and then I have an unhappy buyer and an unfulfilled dog.  It's a dilemma.

It's very hard to say no to someone standing in front of you with a fistful of cash wanting your puppy when you know full well that the puppy really needs the attention of his own home and yet this would be a bad match.  I guess it's a matter of personal integrity and it's tough at times.

Judy

When looking for a pup you need to ask a lot of questions. People that are looking for only a sport dog should look for lines that the dogs are titled. in looking for a dog for Police, PSA or another more realistic training really need to see the parents. You can breed the high powered pedegree or breed the high powered dog!!! I would always want to see the parents in action whether on film or in person....

EisenFaust

I like to take it a step further and take a look at what is produced.  I like to see the offspring, if possible, work.  We all know that not all dogs reproduce themselves.  Some of the best dogs out there are not the most sought after dogs when it comes to breeding.  Some of the most bred dogs have never won a damn thing.  Don't get me wrong, they were in the comp, but they didn't win. (Fero, Mink, Tim/Troll, Yoschy, Nick, etc etc.)  On the other hand some do produce. (Asko, Tom, Fado)