Questions for the genetics wizards out there - Page 2

 but not that much higher, in my opinion.  I have never heard of a deformed racing pigeon being bred, through inbreeding, and I have never heard of a pigeon having medical problems associated with close inbreeding.  In fact, the more inbreeding, the healthier and better the birds seem to be.  But, like most, I do not know THAT much about genetics, other than I should not marry my 1st cousin (even though some do often in certain cultures).

Sorry, got carried away talking about racing pigeons.  Some refer to them as flying rats, but they are NOTHING like that.  They are facinating and fun to race.  The poor mans race horse is what they used to be called, but nowadays, they can cost big bucks.  It is estimated that there are about 20,000 pigeon racers in the U.S. and about a million in Europe.  It is also big in Japan, China and other countries, where they are coming into lots of money through their booming economies.

Okay, I'll stop. :)

Do Right, I think I remember seeing the pigeons under the helicopter on a Discovery program, ( or maybe TLC or NGC)

I think they were trained to look for the signature orange used in life vest material ( that a person adrift would most likely wear).

The eyesight of the pgeon is superior to that of the pilots in the chopper is I understood the program right.

Bob-O

I never liked the Lance inbred GSDs, with the exception of Scorpio

( who looked excelent and produced well, but died young).

Most of the inbred dogs had too much rear to be able to win at all in the showring. ( especially Zeus)

the most inbred on Lance were these Father daughter progeny ( the ones I know about)

Joey of Fran-Jo

CH Zeto of Fran-Jo

Zeus of Fran-Jo

and later

Lincolnwood's Apollo 2-2 Lance

Lance himself was not inbred,

4 - 5,5........................................... in V Rosel vom Osnabrücker Land

Lance's Most Famous Combo or Siblings from Lance were the following litter

Cobert's Melissa
--
30		SEL AM CH Cobert's Golly Gee of Lakeside
31		SEL CH (A/C) Cobert's Reno of Lakeside
32		Cobert's Rhythm of Lakeside
33		AM SEL CH Lakeside Gilligan's Island
34		AM GV CH Lakeside's Harrigan
35		Tucker Hill's Halo of Lakeside

and was a complete outcross for 4 generations with an exception in the 5th being

4 - 5,5,5......................................... in VA1 Axel von der Deininghauser Heide

Another Famous Lance son, (Being a GV) was

AM GV CH Mannix of Fran-Jo ( Said to be not pretty going awa

Jo-Ann, I agree that the Lance was not inbred, rather he was the product of some successful breeding that lacked close linebreeding. The fanciers of the day just went "ga-ga" over him and he became literally the A.K.C. conformation "standard" rather than just a grand champion.

Regards,

Bob-O

When I was in college, I took a genetics class. This was pertaining to livestock and it was proven that the 4th generation repeats itself fairly accurately to the original animal in question.

I know horses are inbred quite a bit too.

Birdy,

what do you mean by that? 4th generation?

In lab Rodents, after 20 sibling breeding generations a strain will produce animals that can accept

skin graffs from one another with no wachamacalit ( Imune reaction or rejection)

Bob-O,

Do you thing they really liked him that much? (Lance)

A friend of Mine showed a Video to me given to him by Fran-Jo kennels.

On it, some of the more recent dogs they had but also it had

on it Aspen going GV, and then

some footage of

1956 Holland Sieger 1957 GV CH (US) V Troll vom Richterbach SchH3 KKL1 a

Very impressive, he was gaiting in the heel position with no lead while the handler ran

like mad. It had to of been Film converted to Video.

I always wondered why Lance was not on it. I know only from reading that lance was not

that great Shoulder or front wise. Id have to research it, but I think Lance got the GV title on

the power of his rear and the merit of his progeny.

I am really hoping we get some genetics experts sharring on this thread.

If I can remember right, the whole reason that "Higher" Life forms reproduce sexualy is to quicken

" Evolution" because they have such a a long lifespan, change is slow but needed to cope with

changes in environment and the " lower" life forms,

they battle against, like bacteria and Viruses ( who are not really considered living)...

Who reproduce by divission of a single parent organism creating Identical daughter organisms

( slower evolution wise)

but faster ( evolution wise ) since they have shorter lifspan and generate so many generations of

decendants ( with many possible spontanious genetic Mutations)

while the " Higher" lifeforms are stuck in the same generation fighting newer generations

of " Lower" lifeforms.

Jo-Ann

What happened to the Spell check on this Board? I really miss ( need) that.

In breeding has been used very successfully in many species including dogs, sheep and horses to name a few. Look at back at the GSDs from the 30's both German and "American" ( like the liebestraum dogs) and you will find a high degree of inbreeding. High inbreeding will tend to establish a recognizable line or strain ( Eko-Lan, Liebenstraum) or a whole new breed ( the GSD, the Pacer).  I have an old book that has a 14 generation pedigree for Hambeltonian - who started a whole new breed - the Pacer or Standardbred as its foundation sire.. You would have heart failure at the level of inbreeding in that pedigree.

In many species breeders have developed methods or formulas (such as we have in dogs - eg the Bracket formula) that appear to work to strength desired traits.  Most of these involve some level of inbreeding ( the Thoroughbred being the biggest exception to this until the last 20-30 years or so) usually combined with periodic out crosses(using a type to type breeding however) to keep fertility high and problems low.

A fair amount of genetic work done primarily w/ mice showed that 7 generations of tight inbreeding brings smaller size and lower fertility with it But that starts to change in the 8th generation if I remember correctly which certainly would go along w/ the type of pedigree we find w/ Hambeltonian.

Don't know nothing about birds but will add some speculative thoughts and questions if I may.  Do you guys ever infuse "wild" blood into your birds either deliberately or accidently ( if a bird got out and came back how would you know if she had mated?) I suspect that your breedings are done earlier and more frequently than w/ dogs. If this is true it give you informational feedback quicker which allows you to change the direction of your breeding program faster wh/ in itself would tend to limit serious or fatal defects from showing up.

Also in dogs we are  in a comsumer market where the customer thinks an animal can be warrantied and guaranteed like a toaster (NOT!). This creates a paranoia about "genetic" conditions wh/ may or may not affect the usability of dogs. I bet you aren't out there xraying your pigeons for bone defects in the wing. They either fly or they don't. So it may not be that we have more genetic problems - just that we look more. Also what roles do vaccines, antibiotics etc etc play in the life of the birds. I suspect there is not the same kind of "stress' that we can impose on our dogs wh/ is known in mammals to cause health problems.  In other words there is a lot more going on than just the issue of inbreeding or not.

By the way Do Right an enjoyable thread. Thank you.

Ferrum - I knew that Eko Lan stuff was highty inbred but I truly don't remember seeing that particular series of inbreedings - where this is an open databse are we secure in knowing those pedigrees are correct? I may have to pull out some old reviews one of these days and go a pedigree hunting jsut for the heck  of it. Also the reason the Lance/ Bernd combination was so successful ( wh/ was what the Melissa cross was) was that the Bernd lines brought in good fronts and true suspension as well as substance and masculinity.

I do not believe that Lance progeny had anything to do with him becoming GV -1. that is not the American way and 2. wasn't he fairly young? 

Re Scorpio while he had and produced the great beauty of the Waldesruh lines behind him unfortunately he was the fountain head for the so called "death factor" which entered the American lines( 1third of litter dies before 8 mos, 1 third by age 2 and you get what you get from the rest). This coupled with increasing selection for early maturity created I believe many of the problems now faced in American lines ( if you start breeding them at 5 mos of age,  complete their championship at 9 mos, 1 yr or 18 mos - it s"ok" if they die young we can go onto the next dog and who cares about the poor "pet" owner who's heart gets broken when his dog dies at 2).  In addition another lasting legacy of the Waldesruh lines besides their great beauty was/is the craziness/spookiness/temperament problems and a lack of breeding vigor etc.

Finally the other problem in terms of  inbreeding with Lance was not just the inbreedings such as Zeus and Zeto who got promoted and used quite a bit but over time we came to the place where every single line in a pedigree was stopped by Lance.  That kind of concentration in the back end of a pedigree brings its own set of issues.

By the way Do Right an enjoyable thread. Thank you also from me

Hi Tig,

The Eko Lan Stuff was not so inbred as the particular example I gave. The pedigree is true, and Verified by the Breeder himself and I remember his words on this clearly, as it was the only example I have ever seem of a Sire bred to his Daughter then to his Granddaughter and again to his Daughter, granddaughter, great granddaughter.

Lance was about 3 and a couple months when he went GV...the year before he went Select 6, and you can read the critique here, but The Critique for his GV I don't have on hand http://gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/Ldogs/LanceFranJo.html

Yes Scorpio was that fountain head of death, I have heard many say they had pups under a year old that died, It was a nightmare for show breeders and for Pet owners alike. Unfortunately form my studies in pedigrees Scorpio produced so well that he creeps quickly durring his short live into the best of american kennels, especially through hius daughters.

Some of these were :

SEL CH Proven Hill's Sunshine ( main Bitch for Proven Hill Kennel)

SEL CH Amber's Lolita of Zarzal ( Best Bitch from Amber Kennels at the time and her son Stridder was widely used and lived relatively long even though lolita died young)

Mexican CH Tamarack's Tase of Honey ROM ( Randheim Kennels )

Tatta Too Lorlocke Fran-Jo ( placed him back into Fran-Jo and Lorlocke Kennels)

His Son

AM GV CH Langenau's Watson placed him the Langenau kennels ( everyone gets shocked at this fact, as

they think Watson comes from GV Hollamors Judd who is a 2xGV Yoncalla's Mike son but in fact, Watson is a Scorpio son and linbred Lance very close 3,3 - 3.in AM/CAN GV CH Lance of Fran-Jo and his Progeny (CAN) MV & BIM Cobert's Whimoway, Coberts Whisper Jet and Cobert's Windsong placed him in the Cobert and Windigail lines.

In an Atempt to Safe the Scorpio line, his Brother " Sparticus was used, and down the line they Got GV Aspen, who was spectacular and a Spartyicus Grand son but sadly died too young ( about 4.5 years) ( not as young as Scorpio though.)

Thanks for sharing of the Waldesruh lines, I have never known anything about what they produced Temperament wise until your comment.

Lack of Fertility .... there are a couple of greats from Tiny litters, namely, Lonni and Lance, ( two pups) and Hoheneichen Conan and Cassandra Survival. ( those are the ones off the top of my head.

I agree about every line being stopped with " Lance" in american show pedigrees. Nobody talks about Pano, and Lance is the first documented case I know of,  plus I " Think" it is an American show Line problem ( correct me if wrong).

To get back to point of " Inbreeding" very few do it in the American showline GSD, with the only recent example I can think of being  Select Ch CH Ken-Delaine's Egoiste ROM this dog was shown as a Veteran I understand that such a breeding is not allowed in the SV and I agree with that as Germany seems to have such good quality and kennels within driving distance, there is no need for it. Germany has proven that Breed evolution is posible without inbreeding

With the fish ALREADY I have a problem. The best female I owned was given to me ( for free) by an american breeder sight unseen ( as an "extra" fish) she was damaged from prior spawns and was an older female, ( but of such superior quality).

her fist spawn went well, but when I tried to breed her a second time, the male I chose Beat her up bad and ate all the eggs ( she died

Now all my best fish are her progeny from that one spawn, and therefore all full siblings...

Maybe the reason for the difference with the pigeons is that I've heard breeders severely cull their stock, otherwise they'd run out of space in their dovecote very quickly, due to the high reproduction rate of pigeons.

Genetic misfits just don't survive to pass on the genes.  Pigeon pie, anyone? I did a quick Google search on genetics, and the first site I visited had a receipe, along with a great deal of other information! http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/

Anyway, that's my guess....

I really don't understand how pigeons could successfully inbreed without problems and dogs can't. It doesn't matter what species it is, or how many chromosomes, when you breed sibling to sibling, you are going to wind up doubling up on lethal or defective genes. The only scenario in which this might work would be if there was a lot of inbreeding going on in nature, due to the flock being a closed unit (no new birds coming in.) Lethal/harmful genes would be eliminated, but genetic diversity would decrease. And having seen some of the weird and wonderful traits pigeon breeders have produced in their birds, I seriously doubt these birds lack in genetic diversity!