A bloat question - Page 2

(continued) To address as posted by Blitzen:

If her experience applies to other breeds or GSD's from lines not prone to bloat, then it might not be significant to the GSD.

I agree.  If the belief is that bloat only comes from such-and-such line (or progeny produced from such-and-such line being crossed with such-and-such line) then my raw feeding several different lines and breeds is relatively useless.  The fact is, there is no "definitive" proof that says bloodline "X" produces bloat and bloodline "Y" does not and therefore you should only reproduce on bloodline "Y" because you'll never have incidents of bloat in doing so, but you will definitely have incidents of bloat if you breed bloodline "X". 

The raw food diet that I fed then and feed now encompassed several bloodlines of GSD's and several breeds - rescue and fosters included.  In that respect, no, my experience is not specifically significant the the GSD.  I wish it were.

It is specifically significant to the dogs I had, have now, and the dogs that a very few neighbors, family and friends who had open minds and saw the results in my own dogs had, who through the last 20+ years have experienced the same results feeding the same diet.

So, the diet can work equally as well for the GSD as it can for the Pomeranian or Cocker Spaniel (as in my SIL's dogs).

It's about proper nutrition and best benefits possible for the canis - not the "lines" or the breed.  It's not "breed" or "line" specific.

I've read this twice and hope I'm not confusing.  If I am, I'll try to expand/explain the confusion.

Interesting discussion. I am aware of one line in another large breed working dog that seems to be prone to bloat and I know of related dogs that have bloated as well.  Most of these owners now routinely tack their dogs, but continue to breed them. These dogs eat  commercial food, raw, homemade diets. My own experience with another breed makes me consider the possibility of a genetic predisposition to torsion in some breeds, maybe not all. I lost one dog to bloat in the 38 years I've owned purebred and later learned 2 others in his litter survived an episode and his sire bloated a few times and was tacked and still used for breeding.  He was unrealted to the rest of my dogs. I did change the way I fed, went to twice a day feedings of a commercial kibble.  

Although the jury is still out, it really makes me wonder if some dogs are not predisposed to this condition.

quote by eichenluft:

I would venture a guess that in the HUNDREDS of dogs I've fed for the past 20 years (all kibble, many different brand names, some corn ingredient, some not) the FACT that there have been NO incidents of bloat EVER, is far more than just luck.  I don't feel that raw is the answer to better health, longer lives, less cancer, better coat, or anything else.  It is a choice of feeding some people make.  But not the end-all answer.  I'll put my kibble-fed dogs up next to a raw-fed dog any day, and compare health, longevity, energy level, coat/skin and incidence of bloat, etc. any day.   To each their own.

Well, I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you over your feeding practices vs. mine. Based on your claim of ..."HUNDREDS" of dogs...  I doubt, seriously, that you've given the raw diet anywhere near enough of a try to evaluate it's benefits - and in this statement I'm including breeding stock, puppies, etc.  It's far more convenient  and less time consuming for the commercial breeder to scoop from a bag.  The raw diet takes just a bit more time than that.  Again, the individual dog owner needs to determine what works for them and their dogs based on their own research and the individual dog's needs based on the information available and if kibble works for you, to each your own. 

No where did I say that raw feeding is an "end-all"  (to quote you) answer.  In fact, if you go back and read, I said just the opposite.  Specifically: 

HUNDREDS of dogs?  Well, ok.  So have millions of dogs been fed on kibble.  Despite your efforts, you don't have the corner on that market and hundreds have also bloated, the topic of this thread. 

I'm not saying the raw diet is the final word.  Clearly others need to make that determination for themselves and their dogs and no two dogs are the same.  It's what's worked for me for many, many years.

By Blitzen:

Although the jury is still out, it really makes me wonder if some dogs are not predisposed to this condition.

I agee.  I don't think that can be discounted.  Any more than incidents of HD and similar proven genetic issues can be.  There is no definitive proof either way regrading either bloat or it's genetic/environmental/feed issues or incidents in dogs fed raw or commercial/kibble.  Years ago, there wasn't with other now proven genetic issues, either.

My point was specific in response to, as you properly questioned in your reply, whether or not my experiences were limited to specific lines in the GSD and only the GSD which might shed a little light on GSD related health issues and the effect(s) that the raw diet might have on those issues.

Sadly, that's not the case.  I'd love to claim otherwise, but there were multiple breeds, multiple lines within the GSD breed itself and some of those "unknown" lines because the dogs were "rescues" with no background information.  They could have been from any commercial or back yard breeder.  The diet worked for the dogs that I had at that time regardless of thebreed, "lines" within that breed, etc.  To claim otherwise would be a detriment to whatever genetic research on same might occur in the future.  I won't make that claim. 

But again, the diet works for me and them to this day.  I can take the better part of 2.5 hours of an afternoon once a month, portion, cut, package, freeze the meals, and feed through the month.  It's no more work to feed than scooping from a bag from the refridgerator after the little time it takes to prep.  My dog (only one now but numerous before her) reaps the benefits.  It's been that way since the AV Fair, 1985 for me.  After 1985 I had no experience with commercial/kibble.  I've read the horror stories, never fed it, and thanked God that the "new" feeding plan I was trying was working for mine. 

There was no need to consider changing diets/kibbles because there wasn't a health issue.  Period. As a result, I have had healthy dogs, few vet visits, and have never had to have HR, surgery/tacking for bloat, countless "alleged" allergie tests, and the list goes on.

My dogs dont have allergies, have never bloated, have gorgeous coats, white teeth, bright eyes, plenty of energy for working hard, stamina, maintain excellent body condition, and live normal lifespans.  On kibble.  If I chose to feed raw I'm sure they would be the exact same.  Which is my point - raw is not better, in my experience, as in 20 years my dogs (and dogs in my care) could not be in better health than they have been, on kibble.  It is a choice of a food to feed your dogs.  That's it.  Not better, won't prevent bloat, allergies, won't make the dogs live longer, be free of cancer, have better coats, whiter teeth, better condition, more stamina, etc.    And yes, I did try raw on one dog for an extended period of time, and was not impressed at all.  Back to kibble, works for me and mine and has for many years, on - yes - HUNDREDS of dogs in my care.

molly

Again, I'm not going to get into a "pissing match" about your feeding practices, eichenluft.  The question that was asked was about incidents of bloat in dogs that were fed raw vs. incidents of bloat in dogs that were fed commercial/kibble or dry diets.  It was additionally asked of me if my experiences over the last 20+ years were limited to GDS's, certain lines of GSD's etc., that might help determine if certain lines, raw fed, are more or less prone to bloat on a raw diet...that is, if I interpreted that person's question correctly.  That information, as I explained above, cannot be ascertained from my  own feeding for numerous reasons.  Go back and read.

You claim in your post..."If I chose to feed raw I'm sure they'd be the exact same...".  Have you ever fed raw to all of your dogs and whelps and if so, for how long?  What diet were you feeding them (ages, activity level, weight level, proteins, quantities, etc. for same were you feeding) and for how long before you made your determination regarding your claims?  Judging by your answers re: kibble I will "venture to guess" not.  No where in your answers have you indicated that you've ever fed RAW for any given time, which leads me to believe that you don't know from where you speak.  And that's fine.  You're entitled to that.  "HUNDREDS" of dogs, as you claim, would require a staff similar to a zoo to prep and feed meals.

But don't you think it's a bit underhanded and dishonest to claim that "if [you] chose to feed [raw] you're sure it would be the exact same [as feeding kibble]..." when you haven't even made a comparison?

I apoligize.  I did miss this.

Yes, you did incidate that you fed one dog raw.

Again, what was the age, activity level, proteins/quantities fed, duration, etc. 

I find it a bit sad that you take one dog  (if you did indeed feed that particular dog a proper, raw diet for any given time) and make a determination based on that out of the HUNDREDS.  How in the world would you have time to evaluate one dog from HUNDREDS?

Gonna try to cool the fire here!

Fiona,

I don't think Molly is personally upset with you, but rather started venting about how MANY people claim the raw diet is practically the "only choice" nowdays as it does this and that and the other thing too... according to many but proved by NONE!  Sure, some dogs do seem better after they switch from whatever to raw... but these are case studies and not what needs to be done on a grand scale if you want to prove anything.  I think it just ticks Molly off, and others, how so many people as jumping on the bandwagon and then acting like anyone else doesn't care about their dogs... not YOU in particular.  Genetics, lifestyle, etc. may prove to be more important than diet... but diet is the easiest to change.

Thank you, amysue.

I would accept that theory except that I specifically stated early on the following:

I'm not saying the raw diet is the final word.  Clearly others need to make that determination for themselves and their dogs and no two dogs are the same.  It's what's worked for me for many, many years.

I don't particularly care whether or not "Molly" is "personally upset" with me or not, or what may or may not tick "Molly" off.  That's her problem, not mine.

A question was asked and I attempted to answer both that and a subsequent question regarding whether or not this diet and my experiences with it was limited to dogs of one breed and specific lines within that breed as regarded bloat.  I answered that question based on my own personal experience with the raw diet.  I expanded by adding the few neighbors and family that followed that lead after seeing the positive results in my own, personal dogs.  Not some "let's feed one dog this diet and see what happens" "case study" dog evaluation.

I conveyed my opinion about comments made.

And I sure as hell didn't jump on any "bandwagon".  As I said, I started feeding this way long before it was "en vogue", if you will, and was ridiculed because of it as a "nutcase".  No skin off my nose.  My dogs were healthy and I had few vet bills.  Better for my dogs, better for me, better for my bank account. 

Furthermore, no where did I say that "Molly", or anyone else who doesn't feed a "raw" diet, didn't care about her/their dogs.  Nor would I.  I asked questions about her claims and experiences regarding raw feeding.

I'm not sure where these assumptions are coming from and don't care to know, but I would like to see other (possibly more informed) people's responses to the original poster's question.

Nope... you started over 20 years ago and definitely did not jump on the bandwagon!  Thank you for sharing your experiences as that is all anyone can go on since there is no real facts out yet.  Soon (crossing-fingers) we should have much more information available about the genetics of bloat, HD, etc. and then we can really start comparing the differences in lifestyle and diet... I for one am anxiously awaiting this!