serious "aggression"help needed - Page 2

     thanks for the advice, I was not sure how to approach this. I do not want to hit him. I don't like to have a dog that is cowering when you look at him from being hit ( I have a couple of rescue dogs that grovel to the ground when you approach them due to the abuse they suffered prior to my saving them)

     I also have never used a shock collar and hope I don't have to start now. Duke is great in every other manner.I bought the choker collar for this reason. I have barely hit him with the newspaper, and it has been on the rump.(I don't want anyone to think I been beating him up).

     My one yorkie is just 3lbs. and Duke loves him. In fact all dogs are on the couch sleeping togeather now. I never leave them out of their crates if I am not in the house. Beleive me, I could not take a fatality.

     I am hoping to do schutzhund with him. He is my boy I bought a few months ago..Murrtal/Bullinger boy. Neutering is really not an option I'm looking to pursue, neither is re-homing him.I more than likely brought this on myself because he does go more places with me than anyone else, but he likes going.

     He is great with my grandson, loves to fetch and tug with him. No issue there what so ever.Never been aggressive to any person. Food has no part in the aggression. My dogs have access 24/7 to food. It is mostly an issue of who can come by me.

     I am going to work the choker for awhile and only allow access to crates when I say so. I will not allow him to be in control of ANY situation for awhile. Thanks for the advice.                                                                   joni

I agree that using an type of physical punishment will likely backfire instead of having the desired results.  There is an excellent book called "click to calm" that deals specifically with this type problem.  Keep in mind most of the people here would probably not agree with me, because it is clicker training and most people here are not in favor of that.  But you can truly shape acceptable behavior this way, though you will likely NEVER be able to completely trust him with the little one.  I also agree with the others who said this is a very serious problem, but it is NOT insurmountable.  good luck.

Lisa

Clicker training I have never used much, but would not rule out Lisa`s advice - she has had success with it, and it is worth looking at.  However, two para`s KitKat that you mentioned have perturbed me... email me personally if you wish, as I would like to help you with these two items, and I know I can, but on this board it would be too long... I am aware that I try to put too much info into onemessage most times, so email me, and I`ll get back to you on the two specifics... I am sure we can help.  Mo  - mascani22@aol.com

you seem a little concerned about what I can only assume that you think being in a crate = imprisonment, or some form of punishment.  It is protection and control and frankly I have crates in my house I dont even have doors on anymore.  I dont have a dog here that considers his crate a punishment or imprisonment. 

make a game plan for what you want as the ultimate goal, what you are seeing currently and then between those two behaviors, every single behavior that is exhibited along with each observable stimulus.  It is important to know that there is a catalyst that precedes each behavior. In breaking any habit, take smoking as an example, not only do you need to STOP the smoking behavior, but you need to also fill that void with some action.  In stead of smoking, chew sunflower seeds, or gum, or get up and leave the area if it is an "area."

The point is, that the behavior may well change, but it is not enough to have the aggressive behavior end, something else needs to begin.

Good luck!!

All above advise is good.  However, if you don't correct it now, it will more than likely get worse!  I had the same trouble with my male Duke.  When he was about that age he showed some aggression towards smaller dogs, as he aged...size no longer mattered.  I used a pinch collar.  Put it on him for awhile when he's by himself, then hook the lease on and let him forget that it's on there.  Slowly let him interact with the other dogs.  As soon as he shows aggression yank on it with everything you have, wait until he shows again and repeat.  Keep him Isolated when you're not present with the pinch collar on.  Work with him often.  Make sure to give him a great deal of praise when he interacts and doesn't try to bully the smaller dogs.  After a short time you should notice the frequency gets less and less.  By not correcting this you're showing him it's ok behavior.  Eventually he'll feel superior, the older and bigger he gets with more testosterone, he will try to become the alpha male, then you will have problems with him and your other GSD's.  I learned this from a club member that had this problem.  You might take him in public around other dogs and see if it is still a problem.  My male only pulled this nonsense at home, however to some dogs it doesn't matter.  If he's aggresive to other dogs outside the home, take him to a dog park one day.  Stand at the entrance with a pinch collar on, as soon as he growls or shows any aggression yank your heart out.  Do this for about 4-5 hours straight, you'll probably not have a problem ever again.

Just my experience

I agree with the posts about increased obedience.  Look in to the "Nothing in Life is Free" (NILIF) training websites.  Your boy needs to earn his freedom and he's got to understand that you are in charge.  The problem with using punishment to correct his behavior is that in some cases you'll stop it for now but you also lose his warning signals (like growling).  He's young, growning and entering the "butt head" teen years.  He wants to test his independence and limits so you have to make it really clear to him what his position really is and what his limits are.  You might need to try some desentizing exercises with him and work on training incompatible behaviors for him to offer when he's acting up.  Redirect his attention and behavior BEFORE it becomes a growling situation.  And you may need to work with your YORKIES as well.  They could be feeding the situation.  IMO, all dogs need training and limits regardless of their size.   It's just as rude for a little dog to jump up on someone as it is for our big dogs.  Yes, the big dog can cause more damage but your GSD doesn't see it that way.

Yahoo has an aggressive behavior list that has a ton of great training files and links.  Many of the folks on there are behaviorists and are more than willing to help with decent advice.  I'd check it out.  They were a tremendous help to me when I had a problem with my border collie (human and dog aggressive as she matured).

Good Luck,

Melissa

 I spend all my days specializing in aggression in dogs, and honestly was about climbing out of my skin at some of these posts, including the original. First off, it is not that some of the problems are insurmountable, it is your expectations. A dog with enough prey drive to "hopefully do schutzhund" should never be trusted 100% of the time around small dogs. There are probably those that have done it, but it takes ONE nip, or even in play the big dog puts his paw on the little dogs back breaking it and your small dog is a goner. I have a 3 lb small mixed breed dog and a 9 lb papillon in the house with 4 shepherds. Even the shepherds that were raised around the little dogs would not be allowed to hang out with them 24/7. Under supervised conditions they must behave, but never in a million years would I leave them loose with each other ALL the time. That is a HUGE recipe for disaster. And trust me I HAVE gotten the call when a large dog has killed or seriously injured a little dog. After getting along fine for years (so the owner thought it was ok). It's an unreasonable expectation to assume honestly that the dogs can always live together without being separated at least some of the time or when not supervised. 

Second, punishment, while it "squelches a behavior" does not cure the underlying cause of the behavior. If for instance I didn't like you, and kept threatening to beat you up every time you came near me, then every time you came near me and I threatened you, someone else came up and slugged me, it would NOT change how I felt about you. It might squelch the behavior for awhile, might even stop some of the threats...but when the person doing the slugging couldn't get to me fast enough, or wasn't paying close enough attention, or didn't have a collar or pinch or whatever on....watch out. Because the underlying attitude has not changed, in fact, probably got worse. 

Third, treating "all dogs as equal" in a pack setting does not work. You can definitely create sibling rivalry that way. We as humans have this view of "if we treat all dogs equally and are nice to our dogs, they will love us and won't misbehave". The only problem is, they are DOGS! Living breathing organisms with a different idea of how the world works then humans do. While the alpha theory does not really/truly hold water with me (because I think words like alpha and dominant are WAY to overused in our society today, and they derive from the thought that dogs descended from wolves, and therefore they must be just like wolves..even though there's also theories that there's actually animals in between wolves and dogs and the old pack theory doesn't apply as heavily with dogs as it does with wolves) when dogs are forced to live together, there will be a flowing order of things. The leader of the group is the one that controls all the resources (NOT read the one that has the most brawn or physical power, unless the higher status animal is nothing more then a bully). There would be one that controls the resources, then if that one is gone, the next would control the resources, and on down. And it is a changing order. If the higher status animal doesn't care about a resource at a particular moment, a lower status animal is given the privilege. This does not create a world where "all dogs can be equal". There has to be a different order of things to match the dogs world. Trying to make them fit into our model for a perfect society doesn't work when you're dealing with dogs. You can train them yes, but they are still dogs and should be respected as such. 

 next, I never label a dog "aggressive". May sound weird from someone who makes their living off specializing in helping people deal with dogs with aggressive tendencies but you never hear me go to a client and say "your dog is aggressive". Because the truth is, ALL dogs have the capacity to behave aggressively in certain circumstances. Labeling a dog aggressive or "bad attitude" does nothing to fix the problem, and forms a filter through which clients view their dogs. They think if they can make the dog submit, the "bad attitude" goes away. If you look at it through the filter of "all dogs have the propensity for aggressive behavior in certain circumstances" you start to see that most aggression is viewed as normal from the dogs point of view. many dogs can't understand for instance why their owner gets mad when another dog in the household approaches the owner, and the first dog gets upset about it and "corrects" the dog approaching. Well, if you view yourself as higher status then the approaching dog, and are therefore in control of the resources, then the approaching dog would rightfully be corrected for approaching that resource. I see it almost constantly, where the owner corrects the WRONG dog. They correct the one that rightfully showed teeth or corrected a dog that was acting "rude". Then the dog that was corrected by the owner is completely confused. The owner thinks the dog is "sorry" and the cycle for confused corrections continues, sometimes to the point where the dog has had enough and redirects to the owner. Then I get called in to unravel the mess, sometimes when it's too late. 

I am NOT a purely positive trainer, nor am I all about "let's correct the behavior". I tend to sort of walk the middle road, but the first step is always to look at WHY the dog is doing the behavior, and then address all the areas of concern. In YOUR case however, I think much of the problem sounds like unrealistic expectations on how you can live with these dogs, as well as trying to treat the dogs like humans instead of taking the time to look at it from the dogs perspective, through the filter of how dogs actually think (instead of placing how we as humans think, onto dogs). If I were to come out on a case like this, my first order of business would be to address YOUR expectations, then see if you can alter them enough to live with the dogs. If that wasn't possible, it would be to safely rehome one of the dogs. Because this is a recipe for disaster, and your small dog will end up paying the price one day....and you'll end up blaming the shepherd, which never bodes well for our breed. 

 I see it almost constantly, where the owner corrects the WRONG dog.....

I ABSOLUTELY agree with Shasta on this point..... absolutely.

Great Post Shasta!