Genetic defects in puppy - Page 2

Food isn't going to cure duscoid lupus. It's an autoimmune disease

I would be upset about the umbilical hernia. Was it traumatic (caused by the mother) or congenital?? That is a genetic defect by it's self, and wouldn't have considered it to be a future breeding prospect. And blizen is right...food isn't going to cure an autoimmune disease.

For some reason umbilical hernias are considered genetic and vets in the US seem to tell owners the dog should not be bred, yada, yada. I have imported dogs with hernias, one German VA and one dog that went VA here who's siter was VA in Germany that had a hernia and they both produced many litters with no hernias. I'm not sure what the big deal is about hernias. As far as the auto immune system. Like I said, I've spent thousands chasing the problem with vets. Here's how the story goes. Ahhh, I see you have some mange on your nice doggie. Let's scrape some skin and look for mites then put some lymedip on it and see what happens. You know this skin problem is a sign the auto immune system is not working correctly and it's a genetic problem. I hope you didn't plan on breeding this dog. Dogs with this problem shouldn't be bred. Can I set an appointment to have Muffy spayed next week? A week later. Still there. Let's try antibiotics. OK here's a bunch to give her. A week later still there but bigger spot. Looks like the antibiotics aren't going to work. Let's go ahead and give the dog steroids,,,,that should cure it. Hey, we found the cure. Just give the dog seroids for the rest of it's life. Here's the list of things to do now: Cancel the Baseball tryouts Spay Muffy Call breeder and tell them Muffy is a piece of crap Get letter from vet telling breeder Muffy is a piece of crap This may be the final outcome for some dogs. Before I went down this path or wrote the dog off, I would try what has worked for many other dogs. If an auto immune system is depressed, don't depress it further with medicine that adds fuel to the fire. Go the other way. Give the body the nutrients it needs to fix itself. No magic here. Just help a healthy dog be healthy. I have seen more dogs recover from skin issues with some diet changes and go on with no problems in the future eating a variety of food than had skin issues that couldn't be corrected and had to live their life with problems.

Thank you for the responses so far. The umbilical hernia was not an issue with either me or my vet, it is small and will be easily repaired. My vet has asked me to give it a bit longer as there is still a chance that it may go away. I have already gone down the food trial path when I first noticed the nose and skin issues, fed Canidae, Evo and now a limited ingredient hypoallergenic food to identify any possible food allergies with no luck. As some other posters have mentioned, discoid lupus is an autoimmune disease that will not be cured by food, in fact it cannot be cured at all, only treated to reduce the symptoms and discomfort for the life of the dog. The diagnosis has been confirmed by a veterinary dermatologist and I am currently treating the dog with tacrolimus, sunscreens and reduced exposure to sunlight. At no time has any vet mentioned or pressured me to neuter, they have just been working with me to diagnose and treat the problem. In a way I feel that it may have been fate that this dog ended up with me, my wife has psoriasis, a similar autoimmune skin disease and we will make sure that he receives the best treatment possible and a good home. I bought this dog as a lifetime companion for better or worse and I do not want to return him to the breeder. I think that I will email the breeder and ask what they are willing to do and go from there. At this point what I will ask for is a partial refund of the purchase price as I do not intend to return the dog and I am not in a position to take on an additional puppy.

Dog1, you are very lucky that a change to a better food worked for you. Still, food allergies are a signalment of a surpressed immune system and there's a good chance your dog/s will begin to react unfavorably to the current food sometime in the future. In this case we are talking about a very young puppy that is already suffering from 2 autoimmune diseases. I do agree that it is wise to not stress the immune system farther by using steroids, but prednisone is the drug of choice for most canine autoimmune diseases, so most vets are going to be prescribing that up front adding further insult to the dog's immune system. I worked with an allergic GSD for 3 years trying everything under the sun from home made vegetarian diets to steriods to antibiotics both oral and topically. Ever give a 125 lb longhair GSD a bath in your own tub 3 times a week for a year? Not fun. There was always some degree of relief, but it was only temporary. Finally skin testing and desenstizing provided relief although it is not a cure and must be adminstered for the life of the dog. The warning from the dermatologist was that a dog that is prone to allergies is also very likely to develop new ones throughout it's life and more skin testing may well be needed. It really troubles me that so many breeders minimize allergies in dogs and it seems to me that there are more and more dogs that scratch 24/7 and that many owners automatically assume it's food which is actually responsible for only 10% of allergies in dogs. These compromised dogs are used for breeding, their parents continue to be bred and it only results in more of the same. Not saying that this is true with all GSD's but it is with many. An allergic dog is a compromised dog, doesn't really matter if the trigger is food or pollen. sh100, I think you are a smart and good dog owner and that your pup will have a nice comfortable life since you are dedicated to do all you can for him. I'm glad to hear you are planning to keep him. Good luck!

Re the hernis please see http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/umbilical.html Please note I am not dissing the OP who seems to be a careful thoughtful person and Blitzen I am not dismissing the problem of living with a dog with severe allergies BUT I have to agree with Dog1 on some aspects of this. First of all 6 months is very young for such a diagnosis since lupus is a diagnosis of last resort- meaning there is no test for lupus so we come to the diagnosis ONLY after every other possiblity has been ruled out. Secondly it is completely NORMAL that during the teething period(hello 4-7 months)the immune system will take a very short term dip due to the stresses. Some dogs will get a spot of mange (on the nose generally) which either goes away on its own as the system rights itself or a short course of imermectin solves the problem. After hips and elbows, skin "allergies are a place many vets rush into a premature diagnois with GSDs 'cause after all we "KNOW" how suspectible to them they are. Typically they rush in w/ steriods which allows any skin bacteria to explode so we treat w/ long term antibiotics wh/ sets up the dog for fungal infections wh/ are impossible to treat and wham bam before you know it you are on a vicious cycle treating the 3 problems and overwhelming the dog's system w/ medicines in MOST cases it has no need for. Whalla you have successfully created a dog w/ skin problems and "allergies". The getting off the medicine is tough so most people never have the guts to wait it out because of the Herkenmeirer(wrong sp) effect where it will get worse before it will get better because the skin as the largest organ of the body has to shit out all the junk put in.

I had a male who I took in because he was bleeding from the penis. Vet says completely normal. I say you think he might have a prostrate problem? Oh! We check its enlarged - vet leaves room comes back jabs dog with needle w/o asking me or telling me what in it and hands me a prescription (ps no longer my vet). Prescription is for antibiotic. Shot - a bolus of antibiotic perhaps - oh no prednisone (makes the dog temporarily look and feel better so owner will be happy). I have some background in infectious disease however and understand that steriods in the face of an infection is like throwing gasoline on the fire. Found another vet but the damage was done. Dog ended up on long term antibiotics for the infection 'cause I was ensured they were safe for long term use(found out later actual testing had been for 30 DAYS only not months). He got classic skin pyroderma caused by long term use of antibiotics that started us on the roller coaster. At one point one vet decided he was autoimmue(despite the fact older dog - healthy all his life and went on to live to 14 very healthy). Finally took the giant step and got off the roller coaster. Treated his skin with minimal tea baths or T-gel shampoo baths (NOT 3x week - just adds to the problem) and supported with good diet and probiotics and miracle of miracles the dog did not have an autoimmune skin condition and did not have further skin or ear infection problems - it was all driven by the drugs. I would just bet steriods had a big part in this little guys treatment right from the get go. I'd be curious did they try the invermectin? 2nd example of classic misdiagnosis. As you know I have Nemo a pituary dwarf. Dwarfs have classic skin problems because they do not make enough growth hormones and are deficient in thyroid wh/ brings its own skin issues. Many are bald with skin yuckies. I know of several who are on the roller coaster I described above and the owners are afraid to get off the drugs. I have(thankfully) been successful in treating his skin problems with supplements and got rid of the yuckkies and actually grew hair on him. His coat however is not normal and never will be because of the dwarfism and if I let the supplements slip his skin will tell me in short order. During one of these spells where I hadn't kept up w/ the supps he was in for a routine appt and my vet was not available so I reluctantly took the backup. She spent 45 min telling me this was a classic case of flea bite dermatitis and that she "specialized" in it and that I needed to immediately put him on Advantage. I said a. Don't have fleas b. his skin issues are related to his dwarfism c. Even if had fleas I do not systemically poison my dogs there are better short term answers to that problem and d. Don't have fleas. I was right and she was wrong as MY vet later confirmed but she still beats that drum every time she sees the dog in the practice. Her mind is so fixed she can't open her eyes to learn about dwarfism (By the way the reason she thought he had "flea dirt" was he had spent the weekend playing in the mud and tho I normally do not believe in or give baths - he could've used one.) Unfortunately today whether it's your vet or your doctor you had better have a pretty good knowledge about medical issues because there is a lot of bad medicine that goes on.

No argument from me, TIG, and the reason I try to convince those with atopic dogs to see a specialist rather than assume it's allergies and let the GP vet push steroids (or roids as ESPN now calls them LOL). The important thing is that the diagnosis is correct so the right plan of attack is generated. When I had my GSD skin tested he reacted to just about every mold and pollen in NA as well as fleas. He was alos sick most of his life from one autoimmune issue or another. I'm not going to say more since I don't want sh100 to become afraid that his pup might meet the same fate as he most likely will not. For sure there is some reason for all the atopic dogs of all breeds. Too many vacs? Something in the food? Something in the air? A compoomised immune system as the result of indescriminate breeding? Beats me. All I have is my own personal opinion. Blitz is mildy atopic, has been from day one, but has never had a sick day in his life. If you hear I've jumped from the Empire State Building you will know it was because he's developed full blown allerigies. I'd rather be wept up in a dust pan than go through that again. I've seen discoid lupus in puppies, it does happen.

I took the dog straight to a specialist and the only treatment he has received was a short course of antibiotics to clear a skin infection and topical application of tacrolimus to the nose once a day. I was also advised to avoid sun exposure or use sunscreens. The dermatologist stated that she had a lot of experience with this particular disorder and that sun exposure was a big factor in my area. No steroids and no long term antibioitics. The dermatologist was fairly certain that it was discoid lupus and would like to do a biopsy when the dog is older to confirm, but was adamant that steroid treatment was not the right thing to do at this time. I was advised that if the disease progresses, the dog shows no improvement with tacrolimus - a fairly new treatment - and the diagnosis was confirmed with biopsy then topical and systemic steroids would be the next steps. No invermectin used or discussed - is that a dewormer and the ingredient in Heartguard? Is it really possible that this is a short term issue related to teething? It may be nothing more than coincidence, but when he started teething full force is when these issues began. I can only hope that is the case. It would probably be one of the few times you actually hope that your vet is wrong, LOL. Blitzen, if you don't mind I would actually like to know the rest of the story regarding your GSD and allergies. I am not the kind of person to freak out and it would be nice to know the rest of the details.

Ivermectin 1% started out as a cattle and pig wormer and is FDA approved in 1% form for those animals. Heartguard uses the exact same ingredient in it's med. Keep in mind there are different kinds of mange, demodectic and sarcoptic. Keep in mind that you, and by "you" I mean the majority of the people that regularly frequent this board.... are not "normal." lol It's a compliment, give me a minute to explain. Most veterinarians are faced with a general populace of people who want to do the bare minimum so they either wont get into trouble with the HS for having an un-tagged dog, or at least feel they need to get rabies and dhlppv series. Other than that however, most pet owners will take their dog to the vet if there is some sort of emergency, take whatever treatment is given at immediate face value, go home, give meds, end of discussion. Also, medicine both human and veterinary is indeed a science, albeit NOT always an exact one. We are constantly learning, changing and growing as we learn more about both illnesses, anatomy, physiology and chemistry. Many veterinarians find it somewhat shocking for someone to come in who has done their homework and actually proactively states.... can we look at this, or this. Vets are also human and after dealing with a certain amount of people who take their advice as god-given, they become somewhat...... inflated.