Opening the stud book - Page 2

Just a side note.  In years past when I did not have the space for a horse, they were rather pricey.  I kept my eye on them, hoping to get one for my wife if we ever got a farm.  Well, time went by and I took my eye off of them.  Then I retired and started looing again, and low and behold, they are cheaper than mixed breed dogs now (maybe a little exageration but not much of one).  I talked to a couple of old time farmers where I now live and they tell me that some are practically giving away horses because of many factors.

As my wife was older by the time we had the space for a horse, I, in my infinite wisdom of knowing that she is a Libra, got her a miniature horse instead.  So that she doesn't get hurt but has the pleasure of at least having a horse.

I don't put a lot of stock in the horoscope thingy, but it is kind of an inside joke in our household that according to the attributes given to Libra's, one trait is that they are the most accident prone.  It IS true in my wifes case. 

As to the crossing subject.  It has been discussed very much on a couple of other recent threads and it has some merits, but as someone else mentioned in relation to the GSD, an infusion of new genetic material may not necessarily be from another dog, but from a more original canine.  The wolf.  I am not smart enough to ascertain the benefits and pitfalls of doing that, but it should be considered as they would diffinitely have the most to offer, IMO, for a rejuvination of genetic material.  But, it would have to be undertaken under the watchful eye of the SV and only done with strict control, by qualified and competent breeders.  Possibly starting with existing wolf x GSD crosses that have already been produced and possess the correct tempements, structure and other attributes desired for the GSD.  Even Stephanitz used a wolf early on, to create this breed.

Just a thought.

Of course the most obvious answer would indeed be crossing working lines with showlines, looking for a healthier golden middle, but they ALL did come from Horace and his offspring basically, so they are not that far apart.

Hey Ceph...want to co-own a Friesian?  I'll throw in $30,000 and you throw in $30,000 and we should be able to get a halfway decent horse.  There's a farm right down the road from me............

Do Right......I just said an ad on Hoobly that stated "will trade registered Morgan Mare for AKC registered small dog"

Yeah, it's getting bad.

The Warmbloods have always kicked ass in their sport! After all, they are the royalty of dressage and jumping! Have been due to very careful and supervised breeding. Remember, in Germany nobody can just breed like they want. Not with their mares, their studs. All breedingstock is inspected. And the TB have been part of this very careful program for god knows how long. There is no opening up of the studbook. And I sure hope for one that it will never happen. The breeding with the TB is only within the studbook and I don't consider that as much crossbreeding as it has been a part of the program under very controlled circumstances. No opening up to any breed just because they bring what it takes. There are enough animals within the two breeds and all of the categories of Warmbloods, be it the Hannovarian, the Bavarian, the Westfalian, the Oldenburger, the Holsteiner you name them, and the TB that nothing else can bring anything to the program that they can't come up with i.e not already have.

And I kind of feel the same way about the GSD. Everything that the GSD stood for is still out there. With whatever label attached. Czech, DDR, Westgerman, Beglian etc. (even american bred dogs) that there is no need to go outside. But the need is to be more careful as to what to breed, not to follow the current fads (which by the way this has already been discussed just recently) to be smarter about what to do. To keep in mind what this breed was supposed to be.

Hey, I can hook ya'll up with a breeder of some nice friesans. You ought to be able to get one for half the quoted price from above. Just may be a baby still....

 Just may be a baby still....

Or just an embryo....

Please see my comments on the thread cross breeding- too tired to copy and paste.

Just a FYI Capt Max kept an open stud book for active working herding dogs..

Do right - giveup the wolf thing and do a little research. A true F1 wolf/dog cross is an unstable individual that seems to inherit the worst traits from both sides and certainly is not ever a working animal and people who have lived with will readily tell you they are not fit to live in civilized society.  Much of the supposed Wolf crosses advertised in this country are Shepherd/ Malmute/Husky  and similar mixtures. The Wolf name just adds to the glamour and thus to the price. For decades now people have had to have federal licenses to maintain wild animals in a domestic setting plus many of our wolf populations are endangered or extinct. Where do people think all these supposed wolves came for all these crosses? Guess what they didn't.  Just yet again another scam to make money - and unfortunately in this country we seem to have an abundance of genes in the human gene pool for poor foolish dreamers and conmen, scam artists and the like. As someone once said common sense isn't very common.

We've got some near me too...but I like the old style horses - big, beautiful, slow moving barrells :p  I think I live a little farther away from you...though...not gonna lie...the idea of moving up north has tweaked me a little...but still...the cold...oh, the cold....

We have Warmblood Program at school (my major is Animal Science with an emphasis in Equine Business and Production)  Our Studs are an Anglo Arab approved for Selle Francais and ISR Oldenburg (which is bringing in another breed) and a Holsteiner approved with ISR Oldenburg.  As far as Mares go we have the whole range of warmbloods - all of whom need to be approved by the ISR Oldenburg in order for their foals to get the proper brand.  We also have a whole range of thoroghbreds, ranging from horses that were bred specifically for warmblood programs to those that are retired racers.  The man who comes to do our inspections is a representative of the German Oldenburg Registry.

The Studbooks are open to *approved* horses though - at least in the sense that I understand it.  An Anglo Arab Stallion can be approved to Stud for an Oldenburg Registry suggests that...Thoroghbred mares that are named premium mares also suggest that to me - not to mention Selle Francais mares.  Not only that but the real Warmblood Sticklers (the Dutch who are notably more strict in what they allow in than the Germans) also will allow other breeds such as Selle Francais, TBs, Chevalle du Selle, and Irish Sporthorses in (these are just a few of the other breeds of our mares).  We have Trakheners, Anglo Trakheners, Dutch Warmbloods, Hanoverians, random Warmbloods, and Holsteiners (all of whom are wamblood...but not Oldenburgs...which is what we produce).

Not all warmbloods are the same either...there are different breeds...I listed some above.  Those horses need to be approved to breed within the others, but they are approved even though they have different standards - that again suggests to me a more open studbook.

Thats they way it has been explained to me by the Inspector anyway O.o

~Cate

Deal with it, 

The Arabian horse isn't getting crossed into other breeds to improve the Arabian.   it is to improve the other breeds. 

The Arabian can offer : 

Intelligence

Stamina

Hardy ness

strong hooves

tight compact bodies ( less vertebrae)

sure footedness

Most importantly ( Beauty)

I own 3 Arabians :  2 mares, 1 Stallion

I also own 1  half arabian, half Dutch Harness Horse

and 1  Akle Teke/Trakehner cross  

Which the Trakehner's are known for having Arabian blood crossed in no more than every 7 yrs. and Thorough bred blood every 5. 

I do get the pleasure of Training 2 Friesians every week. " Guinevere, and Katharina"     There are two types  Draft style, and Harness style.  My clients have one of each.   There are also Dutch lines and German lines.    My clients have the German lines.   Fantastic horses,  and just Gorgeous,  we have to braid and wrap their tales to keep them off the ground.   They both drag the ground by about 2 feet. 

But,  even the Friesians have had to add new stock because the horses are needed for different purposes now.    The old heavy style is not very versatile,   they were designed to carry heavy load for long distances at a walk.   That is Guinevere,  she has a hard time with endurance at the trot and canter.   Now Katharina on the other hand is very much like an Arabian,  abundant energy, so smart she gets in trouble, but also has beautiful free floating motion with high leg carrage.  Guiny,  the faster she goes the higher the legs, but she does not cover much ground,  Just like a high stepping Draft horse.     Guiny any one can ride, she is soooo calm and only just 5.  Katharina is 4, and has to be ridden by me only right now, and will definately excell in Dressage. 

Part 2 

to get back to the topic of GSD's. 

opening the Stud books to other breeds isn't going to do anything but make a mess.  They already tried that years ago crossing in the dutch and belgian sheperds.  It took year on both side to fix the breeds. 

like mentioned earlier, just cross some of the lines that are so far apart.  Or not so far apart,  after all they are still all

         " GERMAN SHEPHERDS "

Show / east working,  

Show/ west working

Show/ Czech

Show/ Danish

Show/ DDr,  

Czech / German,   

Czech/ DDR,   

You get my Point !    But of Course,    being SELECTIVE  is the Operative word.     I personally bred a Show/ German cross and had fantasic results.  I plan to in the future to breed Czech/ German.   After all a good dog is a good dog no matter what lines it came from.   

Yeah, sure it is nice to breed Great  " PAPERS "   

But it is much Better to breed Great  " DOGS "   

There are plenty of good German shepherds to choose from still,  people just have to see past the fads, and I personally feel that breeding a dog with a back that drops straight to the ground is horrible.   They are cripled.   my 7 year old daughter even said  " poor puppy "  after seeing one of the adds here.     

But I also love the fantastic  Black and red pigment ,   and there are some show dogs I would love to own. 

Ok,  I'm done

just my input     : ) 

AKC will only reopen the stud book to admit another breed if the gene pool of the original breed is corrupted with genes that lead to life-threatening diseases/conditions and if there are no purebred dogs of that breed left that do not carry those fatal genes. Then they might allow breeders to go elsewhere seeking out another breed that pheontypically resembles that original breed; wolves would not be acceptable. These "new" dogs must be permanently identified, DNA'd and documented to have bred true for 3 generations when mated to one of the original dogs before AKC will allow them to be registered as purebred.  Unitl the 3rd generation, the results of the outcrossing would be hybrids, not purebreds.

AKC would only approve this if it applied to a disease that threatened to wipe out the breed and the mode of inheritance would first need to be established. I doubt that infusing a different breed like a Mal into the GSD gene pool would ever receive AKC sanction since there are already many, many purebred GSD's in all countries of the world that can be used for breeding and the gene pool is not corrupted. There would be no reason to bring in another breed.