2-2 linebreeding allowed by the SV? - Page 2

I would never do it.  And, the closest line-breeding allowed by SV is 2-3.  However as mentioned I think the SV will give permission for a 2-2 line-bred litter to be registered under permission, or special circumstances. 

molly

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/5/373030.html

We had a discussion on this pedigree back 5 months ago...

I know of only 3 dogs bred 2-2 that famously worked out fine and  there could be more, but of course, I'm sure there were even more that DID NOT work out so no one talks about them. Bernd Lierberg in the Haus Himpel litters in the DDR, Mink  in the Ming litters in Holland and Chuna Policia in T-litter Ben -Ju in Czech Republic, all outside of the SV. There are probably quite a few 2-2s Australia bec. of the import restrictions there. Of course, there are few dogs like Bernd, Mink or Chuna so 2-2 is a high risk science experiment w/c could blow up in your face.

The 2-3 breeding is the closest mating normally allowed. Special permission has been granted in the past by the S.V. when the request was done in a formal manner with the approval of the S.V.. It is something that seldom happens, as for one: most breeders will not even try it, and two: it has to show beyond doubt that the quality will at least be the same as the sire and dam. It was not always this way, and in the past a 2-2 breeding was allowed. This was changed several years ago so that the 2-3 is the closest breeding normally allowed in order to promote more genetic diversity.

Amir, thank you for your concerns. Maybe I need to present my feelings more clearly and state that I personally do not think a 2-2 or a 1-2 breeding is a good thing to do. I guess that is my human values towards the idea of incest and perhaps nothing more. In very experienced hands I could see some merit and of course wild dogs did this for eons until humans intervened. That does not make it a good thing to me-again perhaps my personal prejudice here. Yes, I know that our "esteemed" A.K.C. will allow a 2-2 breeding, a 1-2 breeding, a 2-1 breeding, or the mating of brother and sister. The is a special form called the "Incest Breeding Litter Registration Form" for this purpose, be it an accidental breeding, done by a so-called back-yard breeder, or a skilled breeder who has exact knowledge of what he intends to produce.

One does not need to look very far away to find this practice. Time travel fourty (40) years back or so and examine the progeny of the Lance of Fran-Jo and see how they were produced. Sire x daughter, son x mother, brother x sister and so on. The Lance probably has the distinction of being the sire used in the most incestuous way possible because American breeders were trying to produce the American version of "type" that they valued in the Lance. What were/are the long-term implications? Bad hips? No. Bad elbows? No. Bad structure? No, especially if you liked the structure of the Lance.

So, who am I to say whether it is a poor practice? For this I am not guided as much by genetic knowledge as I am by my personal feelings. And personal feelings are not scientific facts.

Good Discussion, Everyone,

Bob-O

WOW Bob-O

That's a good analogy, I had a male relative of Lance of Fran-jo way back, handsome- handsome boy,
but he was a bit shy and a monorchid, handsome, handsome, handsome though.........very showy!

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Scientifically close-up line breeding is more likely to show a pre-existing problem than to create a new one. I would be more concerned about a breeding that shows 45 entries in the line breeding analysis. Focused close-up line breeding has proven effective when used to standardize type and characteristics. Many such breedings formed the foundation of our breed and likely many others. Extensive 4th and 5th generation linebreeding on multiple ancestors serves little or no purpose, and actually IS the cause of linebreeding depression. The best case is 3-3 or 3-2 or 4-2 or comparable linebreeding on a single ancestor of desireable type and characteristics ONLY through descendants that have been shown to carry the desireable traits. Jonah

Tight linebreeding does work when it is Titus z PS

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/454191.html

Ahh..yes, I forgot about that 2-2 on Titus. Do you know why the breeder sold that dog? I'm not implying anything negative, I am genuinely curious.

Eurosport has 2 littermates they held back and use in their program. Both are highly titled with A Hips