What do you look for in a reputable Kennel/Breeder? - Page 2

Come on now 4pack. Exactly who are these great trainers you bounced around to. The few trainers that did work your dog; who introduced you to them?

Unless I have been in another demention, or living in some altered reality, I am the one who has trained your dog to this point. Not to mention picking the dog out for you and practically forcing you to buy him instead of sending $3000 to Belgium for some half ass dog.

You should really give credit where credit is due.

For Don Corleone- with love

I want to see what they have before I read their B.S. page.  I am just not that interested in somebodies B.S, autobiography.

Some of us are rather proud of our "B.S" accomplishments...

I also don't see someone that breed 4 times a year as a small breeder.  but the fact that 4 litters means that you have between 20 to 50 puppies produced a year.

I produced three litters last year, one litter a "party of one" pup, 17 total. None in '03, '04, '05. I produced one litter this year, none more expected.

On 4 litters you are probably averaging around $25,000 + /yr.

You gotta be kidding! I spent over $4k in dog food + supplements alone last year, not to mention health care, advertising, and all the rest of the expenses inherent in "doing it right."

It is funny, but most of the people on here say that they only sell to people that are knowledgable and can handle their "working dogs".

Then I am clearly NOT most of the breeders on this site. Most of my pups go to novice handlers who appreciate my help.

Now I could see a pet buyer being that needy and wanting to tell you how Rover just opened the door, went outside and ate his own feces.

Sounds like that is what you would serve ME for lunch today, no?

SS

SS

I didn't say that your accomplishments were B.S., but most of them out there are.  Don't take my post as an attack on you.

And no I would not serve that to you!

4pack

It is nice to find a breeder that has vast knowledge in the training arena.  It is nice to build a bond between yourselves.  If you have someone that you can pick their brain regularly, that is great.  I didn't mean that you cannot rely on these breeders.  What I meant was that I am going to search for the best dog, not the best trainer.  It is the dog that I will probably be building a relationship with, not the breeder. 

No offence intended, then none taken.  Like most, I am first interested in the quality of the dogs, then the quality of the person I'm buying the dog from, as long as I can feel comfortable that the dog has received the care (and correct foundation training, if applicable) it needed prior to my aquiring said dog. The title of the thread is, after all, "What do you look for in a reputable kennel/breeder?" 

One of the reasons I look at the "About Us" page is to determine the business longevity of the breeder/kennel, for two very good reasons: 1) Has the breeder/owner been doing this long enough to know what they are doing, what they are breeding (read: has a long-term plan) and how to care for/socialize the dog(s)? and 2) If for some reason I need to enforce the guarantee, is this person going to disappear into the landscape prior to my learning my dog has a serious genetic defect covered in their guarantee? Are they liable to have a replacement puppy in future or are they a here-today-gone-tomorrow affair, more likely to have so many dogs and unhappy owners, for whatever reason, that they get out of the business, remove their online presence, change their phone number and hope nobody else ever finds them?

When it comes to picking a breeder/kennel, reputation means a LOT, at least to me.

SS

Good points Shelley. Nothing is good if they disappear.

I see that the Don isn't actually attacking Shelley, but I nonetheless want to push back.  It is hard to imagine anyone more completely committed to breeding well -- and honoring her implicit and explicit ethical obligations to the breed, to the dog, and to the person/family buying the pup.  One cannot make a living with four litters a year, unless the pups are outrageously priced (say $3000 each) -- Shelley certainly is a small breeder and is giving blood, sweat and tears to this endeavor. 

I also think this whole issue of dog vs breeder is an interesting distinction, but only the top 1% know enough to judge the pup and the pedigree apart from the breeder.

One has to know the bloodlines well, and be UTD on the latest show and training issues and expectations for caring for and raising a bitch and her whelps in order to merely be able to observe the practice of the breeder objectively and without the need for trust.  For the Don and others here, they may be so knowledgeable that they can see in the pedigree and the pup and the kennel set-up all they need, but for 99% we need more.

For most, it seems true that what the breeder has done behind the scenes (from the planning of the breeding, through the care and feeding of the bitch, to the birth, the first few weeks, and then the development of the pups and continued care of the dam) matters a great deal.  One dam may have been supplemented healtfully, loved and cared for well, and the pups may have had just the right care 24/7 for 7-10 weeks -- and in another case, the litter may be the outcome of a mass production process.  How much of that can be seen when you test the pup (or, worse, order it at a distance)?  My point is that it is the breeder's CHARACTER that matters a great deal.  Did she do the right things and can you trust her to tell you straight up what she did and didn't do, and what the pups have shown and haven't shown?  One cannot ask everything and one can verify even less.  It really is akin to picking a presidential candidate: if I can trust this person's CHARACTER then I can trust what she tells me AND TRUST WHAT I HAVEN'T EVEN THOUGHT TO ASK.  Of course, there are shades of grey.(No Shelley color pun intended.  Well, ok, it was intended.)  There are some things one must ask of any breeder, but others one takes for granted because the breeder wouldn't, for example, feed DADS at weaning and then Innova the day you arrive, or keep the pups penned up without toys or stimulation for two weeks, and then proudly tell you of all the times he's used his nose, or carried his toys, or how well he retrieves and tugs.   That is, if you TRUST HER.

I agree with Don that there is a lot of BS, and many breeders (being human) think what they are doing is a lot more than it is.  (So many websites show breeders proudly buying and breeding good dogs -- doing nothing with sire or dam -- and imagining that going back to Ursus or Troll or Lord means something important.)  Further, the word of even a decent honest person isn't worth much if she can't see what needs to be seen.  As an athletics coach, I had to see subtle mechanical issues in my athletes, and novices could not see any of that.  When I watch Asafa Powell or Tyson Gay run the 100 meter I see things most people don't, as I ran the 100 at the world level once.  But when Shelley sees a dog work, she sees things I don't.  So you need TRUST + the right kind of experience, which usually only comes from training and handling one's own dogs.  And from seeing many fine dogs over the years -- and some not so fine dogs.

The bottom line for me is that I wish it were true that the Don were right -- that it is the dog (qua car) and not the breeder (qua car dealer) that matters most, but the real analogy is that you are buying a custom car from a guy who m

Got cut off there...

The bottom line for me is that I wish it were true that the Don were right -- that it is the dog (qua car) and not the breeder (qua car dealer) that matters most, but the real analogy is that you are buying a custom car from a guy who made it by hand in his garage.  You can read the parts list and you can test drive it -- but to know if it will last and perform, you really have to trust the builder was honest and competent.  So you really have to check out the breeder, too.

There is a body of theory in economics called contingency claims and the basic idea is that you cannot write a contract to specify all possible contingencies.  Any efficient economic and legal system MUST come to rely upon market mechanisms that make reputation matter -- this website does this civic duty, although awkwardly.   Those reputation effects give breeders extra incentive to not be caught deceiving buyers -- beyond the contracts, themselves.

I think someone like Shelley who is trying to do it all and is quite public about it can be trusted, and that is an extremely important part of picking a pup.

Bravo MVF, very nice post.

Thanks, 4pack.

It really is akin to picking a presidential candidate: if I can trust this person's CHARACTER then I can trust what she tells me AND TRUST WHAT I HAVEN'T EVEN THOUGHT TO ASK.

LOVE the analogy!

Of course, there are shades of grey.(No Shelley color pun intended.

Of COURSE,MVF would know, "the pun is the lowest form of humor." I'm doubting he uses many of them, so coming from him, its truly entertaining. I'm sure his students would be thrilled... An occasion such as this would probably make the university newspaper. 

I think someone like Shelley who is trying to do it all and is quite public about it can be trusted, and that is an extremely important part of picking a pup.

But alas, none of us are infallible, gnetics is anything BUT an exact science, and we can only do the best we can with the information/data available to us. Would that things were different; it would be an a lot easier feat to produce great dogs for the wonderful people I am so blessed to have as customers and long term friends.

SS