feeding BRAND new puppy - Page 2

You will only throw the Ca balance far off with LOTS of dairy.  Do avoid that.  And don't add Ca, except what is in a multivitamin.  Stick with only a tablespoon or so of cottage cheese a day.  The chicken is also lower in calories than you think.  A chicken breast has fewer than 200 calories -- half a cup of kibble!  Most of the calories (and hence the balance) is determined by the kibble.  The chicken makes her eat more kibble, too, if the plan works.

What happened to your 5 month old?  I had a female years ago who suffered terribly as a pup with bouts of coccidea.  She was only 50 pounds at a year -- and then kept growing!  She grew until she was three!  So some dogs do get delayed when sick and do catch up, although the research says if you are deprived or unable to absorb critical nutrients and protein by 18 weeks, there is permanent loss of stature.

Shasta, when my Uzi came from Germany at 8 weeks she barely ate for a whole week, and I was very concerned.  Just give her time, she'll start eating.

All I feed my puppies is Solid Gold WolfCub. If you feed a great food you shouldn't need a ton of supplements. IF the ears go down during teething I may add a bit of yogurt or cottage cheese, but it stops as soon as teeth are in or ears go back up.

Shasta, 
You are going to do what you are going to do but I must agree with animules. I have not read other posts so I may be repeating but I am pretty set on this principle. I do not feed meat initially until I can see what the pups eating habits are like.  Let him eat softened kibble for a few days. Dont leave it around for him to pick at. Pick it up shortly. Let him wait till next feeding. He will not die.  I know the need we have to see them grow up healthy, but I believe it is in the dogs best interrest to let him learn to eat whats in front of him. If you must give him something make it something like cottage cheese and only a little. Something healthy but not as tasty as meat.
I know many will disagree with this, I am only sharing from my personal failures with pups not eating good at first. You can create a real pain in the butt finicky eater.  Call the breeder and ask them what the parents are like. I think eating patterns is somewhat genetic but can certainly be learned by spoiling.  Give him a little time. When he gets used to his new enviroment  he hopefully will start eating great if you don't pamper him. JMO

I don't have picky eaters as a rule, but when I do, I don't cater to them much as long as they are healthy otherwise. I appreciate MVF's post on the caloric requirements a puppy has. I have never seen that information served in print in such a palatable formula. :)

The calcium phosporous ration is one of the issues that concerns me the most, but my pups from this bloodline tend to fat when their little, eat the bottom out of the bowl no matter what's in it, tend to get pano at about 8-10 mos., so I sure don't want them hauling extra weight around on forming joints.

Canidae ALS lists Ca at 1.20%, Phosphorous (sorry I don't know the chemical abbreviation for phosporous- never having taken much science in school) is listed at .90%. 24% protein, 14.5% fat (MUCH less of both than the Eukanuba I fed for years) At 468 cal. per cup, 3 cups a day should provide enough calories for an 8 week old puppy.

The new stuff I am trying on my 4.5 mos. olds is EaglePak Holistic Large Breed Puppy formula: 23% Protein, 12% fat, 1.1% Ca, .80% Phosporous, 375 calories per cup. Both formulas feature Glucosamine, however Canidae does not list the specific amount. I do supplement with Joint Strong for growing dogs and older adults.

My question is: Is there an absolute perfect value for Ca/Phosporous, and if so, what is it? Does such a seemingly small variance make a lot of difference in the long run?

I'm thinking Michael, quintessential research guru that I know he is, might be able to find more scientific-based/proven (?) information on the subject faster than I can. (Hi Michael :) but hopefully some of the people on this list can also provide accurate perspectives as well.

BTW: My pups transitioned to the EaglePack easily: read no diahrea.

Would you deprive a child of dinner because they fussed over your cooking?

You gotta be kidding. The perfectly healthy kid who refused to eat what was placed in front of them when I was a child was lucky to see his/her next birthday.

SS

Shelley: Ok, ok, I spoiled my kid and my dogs.  But my kid is an A student at an elite college and a national class athlete with great muscles and shiny hair.   Everything has changed with respect to child rearing.  If I raised my kid the way I was raised, I'd have gone to jail.

Everyone: There's a lot of myth and a little bit of science on all of this, so let's parse out the science from the myth.  Ignore me if you like, as I am about to be professorial in three parts: (1) how much to feed?  (2) how much protein to feed and (3) That old Calcium-Phosphorous (Ca:P)ratio.

1) How much too feed? 

A restricted diet does lead to longer life.  Capuchin monkeys fed a 70% ration for life are smaller, thinner and live longer.  They do not do anything comparable to Schutzhund, and they have not had their IQ's tested.  Mice living on 70% rations live to be the equivalent of 118 years old -- but again, they were not asked to train (and recover from training) and nor are they tested mentally or for sustained physical energy.  

In fact, it is safe to say that the ONLY medical breakhtrough for very long life is to eat very little all your life.  Some of us are not thrilled about this.

But does this mean we SHOULD eat or feed small rations?  None of the research has shown that the skinny, long-lived animals are physically fitter (until old age, when they are indeed fitter), happier, or smarter.  When my vet was preaching restricted diets, I did tell him that he resembles the old, skinny, grouchy looking Capuchin in a study I recently read, and fortunately he agreed.

Among elite athletes, the amounts eaten are very, very high.  When I was competing at a high level myself, I ate 6000 calories a day.  Little Olympian Suzy Favor Hamilton, all 106 pounds of her, eats almost 4000 calories on many days.  Top athletes eat much, much more than others and burn 2000 calories a day in their training. 

How much you feed your dog depends on a few things, and exercise and training levels are important factors.  A dog running all day needs much more than a dog in a crate.  Eating more and burning more is needed for high-level athleticism, but eating little and burning less may lead to longer life.

2) How much protein?

To be continued

2) How much protein?

There is an incredible amount of myth here.  Protein is the building block of life, growth in bone and tissue, and recovering tissue, but can't do any of that alone.  The amount of protein depends on weight, growth rate, muscle use/growth/recovery.  A human distance runner needs a lot, but a human weight lifter needs much more, even in proportion to his body.  Some lifters consume 2 gm protein per pound of lean body mass a day!  (400+ gms of protein a day -- or 1600 calories of protein alone -- over 40% of their caloric intake).  Huskies running the Iditarod pulling weight behind them have been shown to do best on 50% protein, while studies show that most dogs with regular routines can only use about 23% protein and the rest of the protein they take in is used generically as calories.  Is that a problem?  Well, protein is a little more expensive than fats and carbs and it does tax the filtration systems over time.

Growth requires more than this.  A young, large breed dog will use more than 23% protein.  In fact, a large breed growing puppy uses a very high percentage of its caloric intake to grow -- needing twice or more food than an adult dog of his current weight.

A lot of shepherd people talk about restricting calories to slow growth -- this absolutely works, if this is really the goal.  The reason is that calories must be used for basic functions, and if there is nothing left over, nothing new can be built. The reasons to do it vary from Shelley's wise view that extra weight taxes the joints to unfounded ideas such as the common view that fast growth leads to increased incidence of hip dysplasia (no evidence at all for this).  The most that could be said about weight and hips is that if the pup is obese his hip rating may be lower, due to wear and tear on his hip joints from carrying around excessive, useless weight.  Does extra muscle hurt hips?  Very unlikely.  In fact, greyhounds rarely show signs of HD even when their hips are imperfect because their hip MUSCLES hold them together well.  Extra useless weight may wear out hips, but extra muscle weight may improve both performance AND the ability of the joints to do their jobs.

Restricting protein, which is not the same as restricting calories, is also recommended to slow growth.  Restricting protein certainly also slows growth, but if you merely lower the protein % and keep up the caloric levels, you just change a puppy from a muscle-building factory to a fat-building factory -- and may hurt joints.  (Shelly understands this better than most vets.) So lowering protein % means you must lower calories, too, or you may do more harm than good.  Note, by the way, that protein is 4 calories per gram, as are carbs.  Lipids (fats) are 9 calories per gram.  So when people say lowering the protein % automatically lowers calories, they are wrong -- proteins are low, not high, calorie.  If you want to make a dog lose weight without reducing bulk in the food, it must be by lowering the fat %.

The bottom line is that for adult, inactive dogs 23% protein is all that is needed.  For pups or active dogs, more is needed -- but how much depends on many things.  At a certain level (it could be 26% in one pup and 40% in another) the extra protein does more harm than good.  If your pup is fat, the protein may be too low.  If the puppy is growing fast, but putting on muscle well, you are probably just fine, and should probably not worry about puppy weight.

To be continued

(3) Ca:P ratio

I promise, this is my last lecture.

As Shelley has pointed out, the Ca:P matters.  It has been determined that we and dogs both need this in certain proportions.  Dogs need it in the proportion of 1 part Ca to about 0.8 part P.  That is, 5 parts Ca to 4 parts P.  In puppies, it used to be thought that they needed almost 2% Ca and therefore 1.6% P, but now all the fuss about Ca and bones has lead to a change in opinion (although no real change in science).   While nutritionists continue to advise 1.5% Ca and a bit less P to lactating bitches, some breeders and some vets are recommending only 1% Ca and 0.8% P for puppies of large breeds who are inclined to hip and other joint or bone problems.

Is there any legitimate science behind this?

(a) The overall level of Ca apparently does matter.  High levels of Ca (as in Ca supplements in pill form) have been shown to be correlated with hip problems.  So very high levels of Ca are definitely a no-no.  The correct levels of Ca (imprecisely, around 1% of the diet) should be Ca.  So somewhere in puppyhood, it is probably better for a gsd to switch to adult foods, as most puppy foods are higher than this, but there is no legitimate reason to say precisely when this should happen.

(b) Should you go even lower to be safe?  NO.  Low levels of Ca lead to other problems.  Eclampsia, calcipenia (muscle cramps, especially in active dogs), and weak and small bones in growing dogs.

What about the ratio?  Do we have to be very worried about it?  Apparently, yes, but only up to a point.  Try to keep that ratio 5 Ca to 4 P.

The easier way, obviously, is to use a good food, such as one of the good ones Shelley recommended.  But what if, as Shasta points out, a puppy is struggling a bit to eat and thrive? 

We got started because some of us (including me) recommended supplementing with chicken.  The natural question was: does this affect the Ca:P ratio?  Finally, this long winded professor is getting around to the answer: YES, BUT YOU CAN EASILY ADJUST.

Calcium

Muscle and organ meats, such as chicken, are high in phosphorous and low in calcium.  So if you add a little chicken to your puppy's rations, you are changing the Ca:P ratio.  There are too things you can easily do to make sure no harm is done.

(1) Add a dollop of plain yogurt or cottage cheese to the meal -- this is high in calcium.

(2) Switch back to puppy food -- this is higher in Ca than most people recommend these days.  It is also a little higher in P, so this is not a perfect solution.

I would go so far as to say that anytime you add chicken, you might as well add some dairy, to keep the high phosphorous in the meat balanced with the high calcium in the dairy.

In the end, none of this, or anything anyone says about diet, should be taken precisely and rigidly.  The health of the dog is in the eye of the master, and you should always make adjustments.  Should Ca:P be 6:5 as some scientists say, or 5:4 or even 1:1?  In the short run, it doesn't really matter.  (Think about what you eat every day!)

The risks with dogs are that some people feed them the same thing, meal after meal, day after day, for months on end.  That's what gets you in trouble unless you are nearly perfect.  Dr John Fleming, when he was at the Harvard Medical School, once said the simplest way to keep a dog healthy was to change his diet enough to be sure that a deficiency in one formulation remains a minor and does not become a major medical problem.  I make it a rule to never feed the same brand food for more than three or four months without some variety.  It is challenging, as we all know, and the commercial feed companies propagandize against it, but it is safest.