The Pet Quality Pup Issue Again? - Page 2

clews--- gsd breeding is working dog breeding or it is not gsd breeding.  What part in there states we should stand by and "open our minds" so people can breed them for PETS?????  Why is that extreme?  So PD's aren't buying sch titled dogs, that's no suprise, or even a concern.  But how many PD's are buying green dogs from parents' that aren't titled??? Sure some are bought from untitled parents, but how many are bought from people that are breeding for "pets"???  I think that is the bigger issue here

Clews,

I am NOT offended by what you have stated, and neither do I want my statement of opinion to offend others. At no time in my statement did I say anything about SARk9s or LE K9s. I happen to have  SAR K9 out of proven working lines. If I were looking for another SAR K9, I would still go to a breeder who tested and proved their dogs. Just as I have SAR K9 handlers who come to me to purchase a new prospect from my proven lines.

In case I misunderstood the initial poster's question, I thought they were asking about pet quality dogs. They weren't asking about LE or SAR K9s.  My response was geared to what I perceived the initial question to be. If you would like to discuss LE K9s, that is a whole different ball of wax. I run the local shelter, who has had GSDs pulled from the shelter by several local LE to test the dogs for work. True, they didn't care if the dog(s) were titled, out of titled parents, or if they even had papers. They wanted dogs with drive that they could train for certain purpose.

Our breed is plagued with bad breedings already. I would think we would want to maximize the potential for improved breedings, I do not mean extremes, just improved.

zdog - you are right about that.  My bad...."pet" being the operative word here.  I know that in my county the police are buying "green" dogs as older pups/young adults and are currently analyzing starting their own breeding program.  They are looking seriously at this and the reason it bothers me so much is the fact that many pups will be euthanized in this kind of situation as there would be too much risk in sending "unqualified" pups out to homes. 

I'm not a breeder, but simply as a GSD consumer I agree 100% with DeesWolf.   That's not to say that I need or even want to have the highest-drive pup from a litter, which would probably be wasted on me as a guy who's just beginning to dabble in Schutzhund anyway.

But beyond drives, proper conformation and temperament, there is another important thing that results from breeding from only stock with the proper credentials: a greater likelihood that the pup will be trainable and intelligent.  I may not care if I have a dog that is capable of participating in national-level events - but I do want a dog that I can mold into what I want.  And proven dogs who had the brains and tractibility to achieve working titles are much more likely to produce pups that can be molded into great companions in the home.  

ClewsK9s, the issue raised by the original poster is whether it's a good idea for GSD breeders to use for stock that doesn't meet SV breeding standards to satisfy the general public's demand for "pet level" GSDs.  That's pretty much an entirely separate issue from supplying police departments or the military with K9s.

I'd also caution anyone saying "Get another breed if you want a pet that won't drive you nuts" - I've known several Labs and Golden Retrievers who drove their families absolutely insane in the house due to insufficient exercise.  The bottom line is that any active breed needs a lot of exercise regardless of whether the exerise occurs in a formal working context or just chasing a ball.  In my experience, most people who have problems with dogs don't give the dog enough time and probably shouldn't own one in the first place.  I'd bet that more than half of the working-lines GSDs who end up in shelters because their owners weren't prepared for the amount of energy the dogs have, would have still wound up there if they were Labs with moderate energy levels.

Alabama k9:   Every breeder does things a little different and the only reason this female was never titled was my fault but to not breed her would have been a huge mistake as I even think at this years WUSV one of her pups will represent the US by the way things are looking.

This year? And what dog is that?   Here is the team from the offical website.

Not an alabama K9 dog on that list. 

I think maybe this whole argument is a matter of perspective,  I see a GSD and I see THE Perfect Family dog,  I'm not saying PET,  I'm saying Perfect Family Dog !!   Meaning this dog has the capacity to WATCH over his family, and be as gentle as bunny with the children in the home.  But dare that one idiot to snatch one of them kids and all holy heck comes undone !!!

Others see a GSD and they see a dog on a podeum.    Am I about right in this ??

I'm not trying to be offensive it's just an observation from the gathering of posts here.

GSD's are NOT a" working" breed,  they are in fact a  "herding" breed,  NOW before you misunderstand me,  Please know I do realize that Herding is more of a job than most of us care to take on....   So not a hit there I promise. 

The argument that every GSD bred SHOULD have the highest drives, and the highest potential to podeum is ludicrous !!!   

Here's WHY....

10 of 10 calls I get about pups are from people who want the benefit of having an Intelligent, Healthy, Well Bred, Properly Raised, Beautiful German Shepherd Dog,    I have had 1 of 25 calls who desire a Serious SchH prospect,  and yes we are able to accomodate,  Truth be known our dogs produce more drive than I can typically find APPROPRIATE homes for.  So we end up keeping a few pups from most of our litters,  As the drives are NOT suitable for Family homes,  We keep them train them and wait for that RIGHT call from that RIGHT person who desires a serious sport dog.   It's long in waiting.   Those calls just DON"T come in as often as you all might want to think.

I have a rescue dog coming this weekend....  The reason they want to give him up ???    "he packs everything around in his mouth and it's driving me crazy"    Now someone did NOT do they're homework buyer/seller or both,  and obviously the buyer does not feel comfortable contacting the seller for whatever reason to take the dog back,  and these people are left with sour in they're mouths about our Breed The German Shepherd Dog !!  

Honestly the road goes both ways here,  maybe you think I'm watering the breed down,  Maybe I think your jacking it up too much.  

Again to each his own,  But I would love to STOP seeing these high drive dogs come into rescue....   The Loved family pet RARELY ends up here.

Again not trying to rub anyone the wrong way,   But that is the truth of how I feel about it.

JRT  I am sorry this dog is trialing for the 2008 team if you read my post you would see my statement  by the way things are looking...the Dog is from my kennel his name is Thor Dalenberghutte and before you jump on that we do not name our dogs and the owner of this dog named him. You really dont need to space so much to make sure your point was made. This is the whole problem with this board critical no matter what to the end.  Marlene

Again this is being blown out of proportion. Just because one person makes a comment about a pup going to a world event, it is assumed that all the titled proven dogs being discussed in regard to breeding are all podium extreme dogs. That is NOT the discussion. The discussion is about breeding pet quality dogs for pet homes. Bottom line, each breeding of a quality titled pair will naturally produce at least one pet quality pup. With several hundred quality breeders breeding proven dogs, with at least a couple pet quality in each litter, we do NOT need pets being bred to produce pets.

Echo, I would think, you of all people (working in a shelter) would see the folly in the behavior of breeding pets for pets.

I currently have a litter on the ground, all but one of the inquiries into the litter has been by working homes(working homes does not mean just schutzhund). I have had over 20 serious inquires about the litter. It is amazing how many people are interested in a litter when the dam and sire of that litter are proven. Even the one pet home contact me because they wanted a stable dog as a companion and if it was all they hoped, they wanted to compete in obedience, possibly schutzhund. So much in fact the person has already investigated clubs in their area. My dogs are not extreme by any means. They can however work, are stable, tested and proven.

DeesWolf: "The discussion is about breeding pet quality dogs for pet homes. Bottom line, each breeding of a quality titled pair will naturally produce at least one pet quality pup. With several hundred quality breeders breeding proven dogs, with at least a couple pet quality in each litter, we do NOT need pets being bred to produce pets."

"I have had over 20 serious inquires about the litter. It is amazing how many people are interested in a litter when the dam and sire of that litter are proven. Even the one pet home contact me because they wanted a stable dog as a companion and if it was all they hoped, they wanted to compete in obedience, possibly schutzhund. So much in fact the person has already investigated clubs in their area."

This makes perfect sense, or sound practical intelligence.

DeesWolf,  Thank you once again for making sense.