Remote or electric training collars - Page 2

Mirasmom ,

Don't go out and buy an Electric collar without actually needing it. You do not need an E Collar to get your dogs attention, remember that. The only thing that you truly need is the relationship between you and your dog. Training is suppose to be fun, not work. If you go to my website: http://germanshepherdlitters.com/modules/userpage/index.php?page_id=1 you can clearly see that my dog, Zambi is totally focus and both I and her have a deep relationship going on. I do not train her with a prong nor an E collar. I train her with her fur saver on one of the dead links.

Don't assume when you watch a dog training video, or movie clip on various websites, that the type of training that the handler is performing on his/hers dog should be used for your dog.

In my opining E collars should only be used for those who are disabled and cannot give decent corrections because of a physical condition that the trainer has. It should only be used as a last option to get the dogs attention such as like dogs who doesn't want handler relationship and is stubborn and none of the training methods out there work.

If your dog is willing to please you and have respect , you don't need an E collar.

If you need help please send me an Email and I'll help you to get started.

I do not need to use an e-collar to get my dogs attention.

there are thousands of very successful people in all sorts of sports inclouding SH that do not need e-collars.

Whether you CHOOSE to use one or not is of course up to you.

I respectfully disagree with Brittany's post.  First, training and trialing are supposed to be work – if she chooses to look it otherwise for herself and dog that is her personal choice but a misleading statement on whole. There is no judge in the world that will award a title for a dog having “fun” on the Schutzhund field. The judge may award points for the dog *enjoying* the work, which we seek to achieve through keeping the dog mentally and emotionally upbeat and providing frequent reward for performance, however, make no mistake, it is work and is intended to be – either for competition or for breed quality selection the dog is being evaluated firstly for it's ablility to work.

Regarding the ecollar, Dr. Helmut Raiser stated "training a dog without the use of the modern e-collar is akin to practicing medicine while choosing to not use antibiotics."  It is plain foolish to limit yourself in the tools available – and Brittany’s statement clearly shows a bias towards the device based on the potential for misuse (which, when considering the individuals who would do so, would mistreat the dog anyhow...) or for the "reputation" of the device and not a real understanding of it's effectiveness or use.  There is absolutely NO WAY for a dog to complete a Schutzhund title with some level of compulsion used in training, especially in the protection phase.  As stated by Gary Patterson, a strong proponent of motivational only training (when possible), compulsion will be necessary and when it is it should be as clear as possible, as strong as necessary and entered into with the intent of using it for the minimum DURATION (not level) required.  Such clarity will result in the MINIMUM amount of compulsion being used and then moving on.  The e-collar is a modern training marvel, especially for distance work.  Anyone advocating competition level training (such as for earning schutzhund titles) without an e-collar is taking what they perceive to be a "moral high road" (by not using the “bad” device) while at the same time subjecting their dog to likely more compulsion then necessary - due to the less effect means of the other options available - which is a "low road" in my book.

I applaud Brittany for having a dog trained only on a fur saver - however, without seeing it actually work in a trial (or at least it's scores) I have very valid reservations about whether it really does work or not.  If it does, credit where credit is due – but keep in mind she likely has a an VERY handler sensitive dog, for which correction might be verbal, body language, etc - but is it corrected none the less.  For such dogs, such corrections are every bit as emotionally taxing as any other - in the terms used in operate conditioning, positive punishment is just that punishment.  What it *is* literally is (collar correction, words, tones, e-stim) is not important, what is, is that it ALL is perceived to the dogs the same, they just have different thresholds for what it needs to be. 

I think people tend to fool themselves about the use of correction and make many moral judgments inappropriately. Regarding Britanny's dog, If it has not been corrected then the photos and videos at the website are an illusion. Then it is “having fun” (her stated goal which is fine) but sees everything as a game – that isn’t going to lead to good (or even passing) scores when the going gets tough – and tough it will. The Schutzhund titling process was not meant to be an easy road, it was meant to be a difficult climb, to separate the wheat from the chaff. Take the dog that looks wonderful, “playing” on it’s home field, with no crowds around, and having to successfully track, performance obedience and protection (performing all phases in entirety) all on the same day, regardless as to the conditions and the illusion will evaporate quickly. This may be her dog, or not – but that doesn’t change the rules of the game on whole. Schutzhund a means for evaluating a dogs work and bonus points are given for the dog enjoying that work. Work is different then play, it has rewards yes, but penalties for non-performance as well.

I also agree that professional training (from a COMPETITION trainer, not pet "manners" trainer) is required before using an ecollar.  I still don't use mine without supervision.

There is absolutely NO WAY for a dog to complete a Schutzhund title with some level of compulsion used in training, especially in the protection phase

Really, good heavens I along with lots of others must have been dreaming then when 4 ladies achieved Schutzhund 1 and Schutzhund 2 titles with the best track, obedience and protection rounds between them as well as the first 4 places and they use ONLY positive reinforcement when training their very high drive Malinois.

Just cos you aint SEEN it don't mean it don't exist!!!!!!!!!!!

-Calvin

Calvin wonderfull post about the e-collar. Why bang on your dog for days whena few minutes with the e-collar can clean them right up with much less effect on them?  If they aren't seing the correction coming from you a handler sensitive dog may come allot farther.

ALso Brit's dog isn't titled so she can just keep talking. In a year or so when she finds a new trainer or really finally wants that Sch1 on thge dog she just might pick up an e-collar and have to eat crow.

How come every time either e-collars, pinch collars or table training is brought up, people who have never used either or even seen them used correctly are the ones who are making these "moral" judgements against their use?  SSDD

Because they repeat what they hear and can't form a "real" opinion of their own, if they don't see it with their own eyes.

Not seen a moral judgement on this thread, just facts and opinions

No different from those who make judgements about the possibility of reaching the top in Schutzhund or any other sport without the need for compulsion.