The ? of Depression ask any SAR handler... - Page 2

I am sorry, if I could get the name of this dog that died of depression????

Yes, that would be me crying BULLSHIT.

I was the largest male in the litter, and I ate the others, so no, I am not a cull, unless you are breeding sissys, and mamas boys.

What is the name of the dog, handler, and certifying org???

Quote: I have heard this before, with the dogs working the site at 9/11. At first they were using live find dogs, and the dogs did get depressed at only finding cadavers. I have heard this too many times from too many sources for it to be a crock of bull.

Or, more than likely, it was a training problem, as the dog had been rewarded with live finds too many times. The reward that the dog was trained to expect didn't come, and the dog stopped looking. Whatever, just the fact that you are so desparate for a dog toi have feelings is a little disconcerting.

How do you explain the term "pack drive" and why do you think they cam up with that term????

Jeff, go suck eggs! I can't give you that link because I don't know about the story, but someone on this site did post awhile ago about their GSD dying about a week after their husband died unexpectedly. The dog was the protection dog for their business, and the husband was theone who looked after it. No one noticed it wasn't eating or drinking until it was too late.

If someone else could come up with that link, I'd be grateful. And my apologies to the original poster if I've gotten some of the details wrong.

Sunsilver, if you are referring to my statements when you say," I have heard this too many times from too many sources for it to be a crock of bull."  Then you must have misread. I don't believe it's accurate but in no way implied it was a crock of bull.

As far as the WTC all I can tell you is this. In my group the search is always a "game". In this game the dog always, always wins. We call it "finishing off the dog". If the dog doesn't find the person or thing it's tracking for whatever reason we set up a situation where we know the dog will "win".  If the dog doesn't make a find then we give send a person 20 feet away to crouch behind something, give the dog an item which had belonged to that person and the dog finds them and wins. We act like that dog saved the world. Our dogs are rarely unmotivated or uninterested in tracking. They love this game because they always win. Who wants to play a game you don't win at consistantly?

GARD my point was the dog would not associate the "child" with the "dead".  To a dog these are separate items. People. Dead. Not a blended or transitional item. It's either one or the other; not one then the other. A person loses the distinctive personal smell once they die. And quite quickly too from what I understand. The smell of decay is also quite a quick process.  As such to the dog they would smell, two hours later, two separate smells that were blending.  As if you had peanut butter on your hand. It would smell like hand and peanut butter but the dog wouldn't assume the peanut butter had once been your hand. This is my understanding of it.

Jeff, I know there are definate dynamics involved with a dog that looses another pack member they are bonded with. Maybe it's just easier to associate it with a human emotion for the purposes of communication. I think it may be different if it were an emotion that a dog clearly does not have a parallel to? Like a dog being patronizing, for instance. The simply isn't a dog equivalent to that. But both we and the dog have a sense of "something" at loss. Maybe that's where the conflict is with the question?

Regards

Dawgs

And I believe it is a very different thing for a dog to lose someone in their pack and to lose anyone outside of the pack. (Though I obviously don't think the dog had a sense that anyone had been lost at all.)  Two different things to grieve (if that's the term you would want to use) a member and a lack of a find on a search. JMO

Dawgs, no, I was not referring to your post, just in general stuff I have heard in the past from different sources. And yes, I was aware of the difference between cadaver dogs and live find SAR dogs. I've heard that the handlers have to be careful that the cadaver dogs don't try to eat their finds. Is that true?

OK sunsilver, I am not the "Walt Disney" type of person. I don't try and see emotions in my dogs, as I think that whatever they are doing is based on a reponse from a stimuli.

So, want to answer the pack drive question??? Remember the internet is open book ! LOL

Dogs are not delicate with decay. Thankfully the families are not exposed to the dog's actions or the unfortunate results of even one or two nights in the desert.  I'm glad they aren't; it would be the last thing in the world they would need to be aware of. This is one reason why most will not transport a cadaver dog in the cab after a find if they can help it.

As far as the cadaver/live find it's an odd dynamic, it seems. If it had been a live find dog then the cadaver in fact wouldn't have any significance at all to it. If it was a dual (or more) disciplined dog then the cadaver aspect would even more definately have no "shock" (for lack of a better word) effect because it would be routine.  I've read on SAR boards that you can't effeciently train these dogs for more than one discipline. I think that's funny. We have dogs that are trained tracking, air scent, cadaver and water and have finds in each of these areas. All but one of these is presently retired though.

I just want to restate that I am a very beginner of this all. And I will gladly be corrected by experienced k9 handlers if there are any reading this thread.        

                                                      .....that is, unless I decide they're wrong......:)

Jeff, I studied animal behaviour in some detail in university. One of the best known animal behaviourists, Konrad Lorenz, had this to say about animal emotions:

According to Dr. Lorenz, geese possess a veritably human capacity for grief. In his conversations with laymen, he would frequently say, "Animals are much less intelligent than you are inclined to think, but in their feelings and emotions they are far less different from us than you assume." Quite literally, a man, a dog, and a goose hang their heads, lose their appetites, and become indifferent to all stimuli emanating from the environment. For grief-striken human beings, as well as for geese, one effect is that they become outstandingly vulnerable to accidents; they tend to fly into high-tension cables or fall prey to predators because of their reduced alertness. 

The whole text of the article can be read here: http://www.articles.lovecanadageese.com/lifemates.html

I especially like the concluding paragraph:

Some people say that animals are incapable of love and that their behaviour is instinct. How then, do we describe such devotion and sacrifice? Do animals have to tell us that they love and care for each other in English or in Chinese in order for us to acknowledge that they do?

Uh...that came out wrong. Make that SAR handlers. I know there are...well..you know...like K9 handlers..reading it..I  ahem..meant...rescue dog..um..handlers...

Well you get the idea