How young is too young? - Page 2

ALLabut -- i commend you for having done well with your dog ... most people don'yt get half as far .. but two comments .. common sense : most people have breeds that they cannot control .. mals , Gsd , rotts , akitas etc etc. , beleive me .. i have had many people come to me that hsouldn't own those breeds . 2nd -- you made refernece to a puppy and a prong collar. -- i am not against the use of a prong collar and now that you elaborated ..ok -- but i have seen a number of people put prong collars on "puppy' 20 weeks old" . now you did not specilfy or allude to adolescent dog. communication confusion . but i stand on my post .. for those that cannot comtol a 16 , 20 , 25 week old pup then either they need help or there is  a mismatch between dog /owner .. and most in that case cannot handle the breed they purchased. one last word .. ok you have control over your dog .. with your accomplishment .. i think you can gain some good voice control over yhe dog you mentioned and id not thewre are gentler tools e.g gentle leader or the like .. . you have done well .. i also don't see why you cpouldn't control the situation wqith just a plain 'ol flat buckle collar too .

This is totally not a "control" issue. He's a good boy. He's not defiant, as I said. I am just having trouble getting his focus off the other things around and don't want him to have set behaviors. He's the smartest dog I've ever seen, his mind and senses are always in overdrive. And I do have another GSD and have been around many at my friend's place. I am only trying to find the thing that exerts the very least amount of force. That was my understanding of prongs-pinch instead of tug. I did not say I use a fur saver. I ASKED about a fur saver. Big difference. He is never "out of control". I never said or inferred he was. I repeat it's not a control issue but a focus issue. I stated that I was looking for input and help. I don't know what you mean by not alluding to an adolescent. I stated he was six months old. Don't know if that counts as adolescent in your book or not. I can get his attention on me fine when we are stopped and there are distractions. Just having trouble on the move with his focus on me.  I usually walk him off leash in the desert as his recall is so good. On leash we rarely go more than a half mile. I'm not fond of the gentle leader. I tried one with my 2 yr old when he was around three months (in a puppy class, by the way). I found it didn't really do anything  but have her head in the same spot but her body would be drifting sideways. Trainer and I both decided it simply wasn't working.

If you've had people whp are "mismatched" that's really nothing to do with me. Perhaps you could have asked a couple questions before inferring that I shouldn't have my dogs. However, the point is well taken from all that I need to keep at the positive rewards and try to work on "treat spitting". He is not as soft a dog as my showline and I'm just trying to get input. Not to be told I should get out of the breed.

i've used a gentle leader on my dog for most of his 15 mos. however, when he was ~10 mo or so, he started pulling and i didn't correct him properly, so to get us both on track, my trainer recommended a pinch. i used it exclusively for awhile and then alternated w/gentle leader. now i almost always just use his reg collar. the key is to make the right corrections w/the right collar. i needed to be (re)trained for awhile along with angus. i have never personally seen a pinch on a pup younger than 8-9 mos. i am talking to my trainer tomorrow about a fur saver. my dog is a long coat and i dont want to wear off his hair. good luck with whatever you decide.

Thats what a ffur saver is for   , to preserve the hair...it is the same thing as a choke collar...a flat leather collar or nylon collar is not use in training.......they slip them   the only flat collar is used when you start bite work    a wide 3-4' one....

Fur saver is only a choke collar....if you dont want to choke the dog you put it on the dead ringer.....a lot of time you can double collar a pup..

The gentle leader IMO is for gentle breed dogs ,,,,or show line maybe....not my kids....Ive always had no problems training with a choke collar....'

unless Schutzhund has changed a whole lot in the last few months, since I havae not been to the clubs.....they all use choke collars.....and when you need you dead ring it.....flat collars would havae to be on so tight they cut the circulation off or the pup or dog would slip and that is a run a way waiting to happen.....then you just slip them off when crating......also  you dont have time to buckle up a collar when 10 people are waiting or  even 3 other people waiting to go next.....

Puppies go home with a nylon collar until they start their training and then a smalll choke chain......unless some want to try the gentle trainer ,if they are not in the sport.

A "gentle leader" puts pressure on the spine and cartelidge of the nose, it is anything but gentle.  Bronc horses used to be put into war bridles, the pressure points could bring the worst bronc to it's kness.  The gentle leader is the same principle.

Dawgs, I've had a couple people tell me the smaller prongs actually are harsher.  I put one on each wrist and tried them both.  The smaller prongs were much harsher.   I believe all of ours are now the 3.25mm.  Get a good one from Herm Sprenger when you do go that route, a stainless one is best.  Not the clip buckle type either as the weight of the clip puts pressure on the prongs.

My pup is going on eight months old.  My club suggests a dog this young is not mentally mature enough to understand that kind of correction. They have me working on getting his drives up with a tug and teaching him simple foundation obedience- heres, platz,  short foose's.. pretty much purely positive at this point. My club is far from 100% positive training, but for a dog this age, they are.

My pup was a real hard head about obedience until just recently. He learned things quickly, but did them when he wanted to. The problem I think was that I was not motivating him properly.  It is like a light came on in his head and he has just now started to understand : "Hey...this game is fun!, and if i do it good..it is more fun!"

I would suggest letting him be a puppy- make training the greatest part of the day. I think compulsion methods are to be used a bit later in the dogs life when he knows darn well what you are asking him to do and decides....Nope...

If my pup doesnt do what he is supposed to, i just sternly tell him no, take him back to where we started,  and make him do it right and the game goes on...good performance gets a big game of tug.

Just one person's experience here- best of luck!

Jehannum: you are entirely correct.....any negative runs a pup the other way.....when they have fun and reward the training is as easy as pie. Most pups are still up to 13-14 mos old still very much puppies...however , my bloodlines are doing hard ragwork at very early age...because they love it...and its a game , but you have to do it correctly...and then the teeth start in and you get 5 months or so of only obedience  and tracking...every dog is different    My Krishi was tracking with Adrian Ledda at 5 mos old and on her 4th leg and had started article training in the circle when her owner died of cancer....she is a high drive  girl and all she wants to do is play and work.. Its hard to tell people, everything you do , do it correctly, even in play, because you set these dogs, and if you do it real wrong,,,you have to undo it....not very easy.......We all learned on our first pup and dog,,,Thats been so many years ago , I have to relearn now...but I dont train anything but a pup now...

The back is    dem bones dem bone dem bones dem dry bones........lol

allabout --if you want to interact with your dog --you state a focus problem - one preceding comment -- i do not teach my dogs to 'focus ' on me' -  not the way that it is usaully taught. i feel that many people just get the behavior of the dog looking at them .. for me .. that is not good enough -- i want my dog to be attending to me -- why ? because if a dog just looks into one's eyes they can also not look into your eyes very easily ! -- a suggestion for you -- i do this with my pups right from the start .. i first teach them to give me attention .. now i did not state i initiate the attention .. i teach THEM TO  WANT  to give me the attention . this takes about 1 or 2 days. then i purposely put them into a position where they are distracted. for example other dogs. traffic .. anything and anywhere any place and anytime .. right from the start. --the lesson :  " ignore what's  in and around you .. look to push my buttons to give you direction . attend to me[ no matter where i am and what i am doing]  ! even in bite work . at 12 weeks i have every distraction under the sun when i work the pups .. the lesson the same .. everything is irrelevent but the bite ... same with tracking , day one all types off distraction , cross tracks , scents and turns , the lesson again "eveything else is irrelevent in the environment " . so it is with you when in your dogs is in your prescence " everything else is irrelevent" . when your dog attends to you that will directly translate into you being able to teach the dog self control . for example .. my GSDs wil not go through a door without sitting and looking .. they sit without being told .. they attend to me .. because that is how the door opens . same with my vehicle . same with a protection exercise -- they attend to me .. becuse that is how they get to here me say  "fass" . and not until... currently i am instilling this concept in my two [ and at the exact same moment , working the two together] 10 week pups. see i don't care if even the littermate is present . dog learn to attend to me and learn self control !

QUOTE:

How old should a puppy be for a GENTLE correction using a prong? I have heard that the smaller links are better for distribution of correction and ease of fitting. I have read some on this on Leerburg but am hesitant with that because they seem to be used to harder dogs and are rougher than I am comfortable with. Or so it seems to me.

Would a fur saver be a better choice at 6 mos.? He is good but is so distracted by everything that I can't even get his attention with treats a lot of the time. He's not being defiant at all just interested in everything.

Stay away from the prong. Stay away from leerburg advice LOL you are getting sleepy, so sleepy. : )

Seriously, getting a dogs attention is a handling skill, and to "gently" correct him for your shortcomings and lack of patience is not fair. I have been where you are right now, and wanted to whack the dog everytime he looked away from me, but I was trying to learn how to train with minimal, to no compulsion. The dog I chose to do this with was absolutly useless, but it did teach me a valuable thing. Get a dog that isn't so scattered ! ! ! ! LOL.

Just keep at the attention thing and try to do it where there isn't anything going on. That is harder sometimes than the actual training. If he is not hungry, or has little food drive, then stop feeding him for a couple of days, and get him his food during your focus work. If it isn't working, then ONLY feed him during focus work. Just do it at least three times a day, so he has a chance to get some food fairly often.

Alpha-If I'm understanding you correctly you are saying to get his desire to you not his eyes? I think I get your concept but can't figure out how to accomplish it. When you say you get them to attend to you can you give me steps to get there. For an example, you're watching tv. How do you get them to be about you and not the dust ball? Does it need to be a more active situation in order to do the foundational work?

maybe a better example is sitting and waiting at the door. He will sit and look for the release at the door IF I stand in the doorway with my back to him until he gets the idea. Taught him this by just waiting for his butt to hit the ground then immediately opening the door. He learned it quickly but still it is pretty much initiated by me i.e.-my standing in the doorway.  If I didn't stop in the doorway he wouldn't think to do it, I believe. should I give the sit stay command for a while? Maybe before we get to the door instead of waiting on his timing? Or is that still not self initiated for him? I would definately like to try this theory and see how it would work with him. He is mostly a compliant dog. Not a bang your head against the wall dog.

Jeff-That's the funny thing. He isn't scattered. He's sort of like a bloodhound. Gets smelling something and is so intent on it I'm having trouble getting him off it.  I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I'm terribly frustrated with him, I'm really not. I just wanted to know what would be the least forceful way to get the idea across. As far as the gentle correction I meant as I tried to convey (but don't think I did a real good job of it) was more of a self correction when he reached the end of the leash.  From what I had researched a prong would give a pinch porportionate to the amount of force he used to leave my side. And it wouldn't take much for him to figure out that he could eliminate the pinch himself.  As far as I'm concerned I'm not that cranked up with the "heel" position, per se. I just didn't want him to reinforce the behavior of focusing on the things that catch his eye. It is a balancing act I'm working on because I'm hoping he will make it through the SAR training. In which case I don't want him in a compulsive heel or where he can't think of anything but just me. I also wonder if I take him on too many off leash walks. Which is what we do the most.

Maybe I should just get one of those electronic dogs.