Black recessive carrier (?) - Page 2

Nope, the only way i knew she carried black because I planned the breeding with her mother and picked the stud who was solid black, lol.

not even faint black hairs on her feet?  In her pictures it looks like she does have faint tarheels, and black on her lower feetses - don't ruin my theory Angela!!!!    She must have at least a few black hairs on the tops of her toes!!!   LOL

molly

I'll look again tonight to make sure, but none that I remember because I thought it was pretty weird.   I know her mother doesn't, but she's strictly sable no matter what she's bred to.  Oxana (her mother) has faint tarheels, yet no black recessive.

the tar heel thing is a theory - no proof, and plenty of testimonials to show otherwise one way or other like Angelas

have seen dark sables with them never produce a black even when bred to a black, and have seen 2 black and tans who have no black on feet produce black

as has already been said, Lee (JRT is Lee Hough) - black/tans do NOT need to carry the toe-mark or other indicators that they carry black recessive.  As I already said, I have known washed-out black/tans who had a black parent, and therefore carried black recessive.   In fact, black is known to NOT improve pigment - it will NOT improve red or improve overall dark pigment in black/tans or sables - so the "darkness" of the dogs' body has nothing to do with if it carries black recessive or not.  The lightest grey sable could carry black recessive.  But getting back to the point - SABLES in my experience DO carry indicators if they have black or bicolor recessive.  If Angela's sable dog has not one black hair on her toes, then she would be the first SABLE dog with black recessive and no indicators in my experience.  If that is the case, then I would revert my opinion to be 99% of sables will show they carry either black or bicolor recessive, by indicators (black markings on toes, tarheels)

molly

Molly's right... BLACK is not a color trait that will improve pigmentation...Actually it is so recesessive that the founder was only able to bring about this color after excessive inbreedings... He was trying to perfect the Working dogs' appearance culminating with a solid BLACK with SHORT coat which is Roland Starkenburg... but to think of it ... A young DARK Sable GSD (although "sable" already means dark in Germany)  who was among the best of Horands' litter already made Sieger (Hector Swaben) .  What I can say is a True solid Black (phenotype and carrier) will appear as short coat and will be with dark grey skin (probably why you may see Tar Toe skin  as opposed to regular grey or brown skin... The solid black looks bad if the underlying skin is light colored and like I said... the original solid black had short coat like a Malinois... Plus the solid black recessive gene is also the source of WHITES and albinism... The sable was meant to improve pigmentation for the black pigment because it reverses the changing of color from black to tan (Tan being overlayed by Black termed as Sable overlaying) as opposed to tan with black markings on the head and mask (like Mals) and Black with Tan markings( regular  Black and tans) ... Only and only if one of the parents is sable can you produce a Sable dog (even if the ancestors are full of Sables...) A dark tan (brown) that turns into dark sable that's a plus because you have plenty of Black plus a rich mohagany base hair... STILL the SOLID BLACK is just RECESSIVE genes that may have white if in excess...

One of my stud dogs carries solid black. He is of old show lines. www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/121549.html

His breeder knew that he carried solid black and also knew that his sister's did not. She said that she could tell because his ears stayed solid black.

I have ultimate respect for this breeder as she was breeding for over 40 years and came to the USA from Germany. This may be just something that was an indicator in her lines. But my question is, is this a common indicator in the black and tan/red dogs? Or are there any other reliable indicators that one can tell with a black/tan/red dog? Other than the pedigree it's self.

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com castlebrookshepherds.net/enter.html

it is much harder to tell with black/tan or red dogs.  Black ears would not be an indicator - there are plenty of black/red dogs with full black masks and ears that do not carry black.  In black/reds - easiest way to tell is if one parent is black or a black carrier, then the black coverage of the resulting puppies <can> be a hint - the darker puppies in the litter carry the black, the ones without as much black coverage don't - but that's still a guess.  The only way to truly know if a black/tan dog carries black, is if one of the parents IS black (then it is for sure), or if, say - both parents are sable, one parent carries black/tan and the other black - then the black/tan pup must carry black (because it inherits one color gene from each parent, and if it had inherited sable it would be a sable - so the only possibility in that case would be black/tan from one parent and black from the other) - or if it produces black puppies.

molly

Thanks for the input Molly!

Not that I at all doubt that black ears are not an indicator.... BUT... how many of these black and red show dogs with full black mask and ears have been bred to something that carries black??? Just an interesting thought to me.

Debby

ebinezer052899@yahoo.com castlebrookshepherds.net/enter/html

Cool.  Thanks for all the responses.  I see that the proposition that all black carriers must have pencil marks/tarheels is not really correct.

Good learning experience.  Thanks!

Yvette