The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 18

I agree with Gustav.  Unfortunately genetics is not an easy subject to follow, or, descibe in a way that everyone will understand.  I think that for anyone who can understand what the inbreed coefficients really mean will benefit in reaching their goal.

I prefer the Hardiman method becuase the criteria is wider than that by Wrights submissions.  To use the example of the female that I used earlier with no inbreed in the first five generations of her bloodline gave a low score, however, when extended to seven generations it gave a completely different result.   So many of the same dogs that appear in the seventh generation gives a completely different result because of the frequency that they are present.  We then have to look at the inbreed from these dogs because they also will be heavily inbred and may produce health probems, e.g. epilepsy or other undesirables.  I would make a point here and, that is that I am in NO way suggesting that the female example has epilepsy behind her in the bloodline.

Although we would want to start with the best possible scenario it does not matter where we start but it may and, usually does, take longer to achieve our goals.  Also, breeders need quite an extensive knowledge of dogs in the breed to be able to identify whare the problems will originate or whether to continue down the path they have chosen.  The breeders who just breed what they like need and depend on an enormous degree of luck to be sure that little or no damage is caused to the breed as a whole. Although it may never happen the breed needs and demands more reponsible breeders.

Mackenzie

Haz - As the original poster of this thread is quite clear that you have not read properly and understood what I have said.   All that you have said is pure and simple rubbish indicating that you have little or no experience of this breed and, it comes as no surprise to me, that you are supported by vk4gsd.

If it is your intention to buy a dog then I respectfully would suggest that you find another breed to mess up.

Mackenzie

Mackenzie, I just finished a PM conversation with another member where I pointed out to her EXACTLY what you just said above! I used an American line dog with zero inbreeding in 5 generations as my example, though!

A former PDB member with a great deal of experience with these lines had commented on what a disaster his pedigree was, with many of his ancestors dying from bloat, toxic gut, etc. When you extended the linebreeding back to 7 generations, it became obvious WHY there were problems with these lines! And it's the reason she abandoned the American show lines for the German.

I also showed her just how much linebreeding there was in the German showlines, even when you don't take the falsified pedigrees into account. That particular gene pool very badly needs a little freshening up!

Okay, dammit, I'm going to show you ALL the evidence I have available:

Here's the dog, and it's 5 gen. linebreeding:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=559777-karizmas-nicaragua

Now, let's go to 7 generations:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=559777-karizmas-nicaragua

 

And here's what my anonymous source has to say about some of his ancestors. This is copied from a post on the database, so I am not violating confidentiality. The dog she is referring to is not the one I linked above, but they share many common ancestors.

Let's take a look at some of the dogs (http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/527359.html) in the "peacock"'s (Utopia's Sig Alert) illustrious pedigree: (1) CH Leiter's Excalibur--suffered ED (I believe, fragmented coronoid process). (2) CH Nike Clayfield Andretti--died young (I believe, toxic gut syndrome--TGS). This was the dog responsible for activating AKC's DNA testing program. Seems that some litters allegedly sired by this dog were instead sired by one of his sons. (3) Cobert's Sirocco Of Windigail--wore a pacemaker--died when it malfunctioned or fell out. (4) CH Karagin's Crusader--died young of toxic gut syndrome. (5) CH Covy Tucker Hill's Durango--died young. I owned the litter sister to his dam (Covy Tucker Hill's Turtle Dove) who produced both EPI and TGS. Hey, I'm on a roll--I could go on all night. 

Look, we still have problems--a few generations back. (1) Eko-lan's Paladen was said to have had a "pancreas problem". His daughter (Covy-Tucker Hill's Talisman) produced EPI and TGS. (2) When I bred a granddaughter of Lakeside's Gilligan's Island to the Paladen son, Doppelt Tay's Hawkeye, I had EPI and TGS in the same litter. (3) Langenau's Watson died very young--either bloat or, more likely, TGS. Watson was the sire of the Hawkeye litter from a Gilligan daughter (also had EPI)--this litter had EPI and TGS. (4) CH Karagin's Crusader--died young of toxic gut syndrome. (5) Impulse--I has a son of his, Dolmar's Legacy, with fragmented coronoid process and definite symptoms of EPI when I returned him to his breeder. Legacy produced EPI and FCP. (6) Lakeside's Gilligan's Island died at the age of 3--reportedly from bloat. His younger brother Harrigan died young--everyone said bloat--owner said "renal failure". Harrigan's sister Halo was the dam of my Paladen daughter, Covy-Tucker Hill's Talisman (sister to Turtle Dove--dam of Durango, who was the sire of Crusader) who produced EPI and TGS. (7) Zeto and Zeus of Fran-Jo (owned by Jimmy Moses)--my Zeus son, Covy's Pan of Tucker Hill (out of Covy's Felita of Tucker Hill--a Gilligan daughter) had OCD of the shoulder and produced TGS. A linebreeding on Pan produced EPI and TGS. Isn't this brief statement damning enough? 

 

Oh, but those dogs are all more than 5 generations back, you say? So they shouldn't matter? Yeah, right...   The genetic term for it is 'backmassing' and if you get enough of it, it WILL matter, especially if the dogs your are backmassing on have some serious genetic faults.

Of course, it takes an irresponsible breeder to allow these faults to be passed on. but if you think this hasn't happened in the German showlines as well as the American, you are deceiving yourself!

Sunsilver - Quite a mess.  That is the very best example of why the knowledge of Hardiman's method of inbreed coefficients is so valuable.

Mackenzie

 

Ss, with all due respect, those examples you gave are all selected breedings for single purpose...it's never going to be successful when the only thing people choose for is big names, side gate and color.

The whole purpose of this thread is to discuss what needs to change, Joan. I mentioned single purpose breeding as one of those things. And one of the driving forces behind single-purpose breeding has been this type of irresponsible line breeding.

Am I saying linebreeding is bad? God, NO!  But let's at least be able to identify what's acceptable and what isn't. A lot of breeders have NO CLUE. The COI's in Nicaragua's pedigree would look perfectly acceptable to 99% of the breeders out there. Dig further back, and that's where you'll find the problems.

Line breeding can be disastrous using the wrong dogs. What needs to change is the criteria most breeders select their dogs by.

this mouse is heavily inbred and looks fine;

 

 

 

All views are correct in their own perspective, Joanro's, SS's, Mac's and Gustav's. I think SS adressed a solution for the whole breed without technecaltities, Gustav in his last post compliments what SS said but with a specific clear path for coming out of the ditch and never falling in it later, a path that is good and applies to both work and show breeders.

((But the biggest problem that breeders of today have regardless of the formula, is breeding for what they LIKE as opposed to breeding for what is best to maintain balance and vitality. Breeding for what you like, is speciality breeding, and although may enhance specific traits, it inadvertly leads to extremes and a decline in temperament and instincts. ( Temperament is not drives as you can have extreme drives also which lead to decrease in temperament and instincts)). 

I´ve been reading up and following this post for a while now. First of all thanks for all the info and explanations. I´ve always aimed on having no/minimum hd and ed in linebred dogs and no reports of miserable characters and agression. My question what is a healthy wright`s and hardiman`s and is there any way of detrmining/differenciating other than just the generation e.g. a dog appears twice in gen.5 but closely related on one side e.g. on both sides as grandfather for a dog in gen 3.

is there a formula/ analysis of the inbreeding coefficients of the ancestors of my dog but directly relating to the influence on mine?

Sorry for all the questions, hope u can understand what i`m trying to say - if not just point out what is unclear.