The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 17

VK4, I knew when I posted that you would criticize my solution, without offering anything better.

I have a suggestion for you:

....but I can't post it here, or I'd get in trouble with the mods! 

How does crossing show line with working line increase genetic diversity? I seriously can't believe you need to ask that question!  It's because when you do that you are OUTCROSSING rather than line breeding!

Have you any idea how intensely linebred the German showline dogs are? I have a female that's half German show line. There's one dog that shows up FOURTEEN TIMES in six generations!  IMO, that is NOT healthy!

the thread is about the breed as a whole, so if crossing your (or any) GSL to a working line and it improves the working ability of the puppies, compared to the SL parent as a reference, in that litter has the working ability of the breed gone up or down compared to say breeding to the WL parent as a reference?

might come as a shock to you but line breeding increases diversity of the breed, now i concede this might be a definition thing or i might be wrong, (it has happened once before) but in other breeds eg kelpies, hunting dogs, stud cattle....., the lines are kept seperate to give diversity to the breed as a whole.

this might work for you, admit it is not the best analogy;

before the fall of the wall and a time when the DDR lines, the czech lines, pure herding lines etc were kept separate in WG from WG SL and  WG WL (schutshund) and other isolated  (more or less) lines were evolving do you think there was more, or, less  genetic diversity in the breed than now when all those isolated lines have been out-crossed over and over to the point that DDR,  Czech, herding lines etc are basically non existent as "pure"  lines.

does this make any sense, i am trying to learn, you guys need to stop thinking i am trying to have a go or some such BS you have in yr skull.

further i will add that line-breeding general principles when done right can eradicate recessives, in a sense it is the only way it can be done, do not tkae that too strictly or literally.

VK4, you and I have been over this same ground before. No, linebreeding can NOT completely get rid of recessives, that is OLD OLD OLD thinking that has been proven WRONG, Also, you say linebreeding improves genetic diversity, again, I am saying BULLSHIT!  The coeefficient of inbreeding tells you how closlely related two animals are genetically. The linebreeding in some dogs (e.g. shelties) has gotten so bad that many puppies from different litters are as closely related genetically as if they'd been siblings.

I understand what you said ;in an earlier thread: linebreeding to develop a specific line, then crossing it to an unrelated line after several generations is the best way to breed, and I do not disagree with that. But you also said if every line is crossed with every other line, you will totally destroy genetic diversity in our breed. Sorry, no, that is total bull. The breed is too large, too diverse, and spread over too many countries for that to happen. The cost of importing dogs from overseas alone will prevent it. Even if it does, it is not difficult to restore different lines by careful linebreeding, then outcrossing one line to another every so often to prevent the lines from becoming too inbred.

Joanro and Gustav approaches are good for individual breeder, SS approach is good for opening up the gene pool of the total breed, at same time her approach if done properly and strictly would and should produce no less dogs than Joanro would

SS you consider yr own opinion to be much more than that, just your opinion.

i assumed some intelligence in the things i suggest, not everyone flock to the lastest show wiinner.

SHOW US YR FRIKKIN DOG...WORKING.

that is my new mantra now as the antidote to know it all internet breeders and experts - just show me you working yr frikkin dog;

i will do likewise, lets see who is full of shite, WITH PROOF.

and no still photos either.

All I can say is people with the mindset of the OP are probably why the GSD is where it is.  That mindset is why the majority of GSD will never be capable of being more then pets.  They can breed showlines or working lines the results will always be similar.

2-2..so icky...haha.

I will be looking for a tight line bred dog in the next few months male or female.  If anyone has something special I'm all ears :).  No average dogs, nerve issues, grip issues, showlines or mixes therof.

^ agreed with Haz dude.

Genetics is a very complicated subject and to give a specific answer would take up more space than this PDB will allow. To understand the coefficients of inbreeding it is useful to understand the termology of "allele" "homozgosity" and "heterozygosity" .

Each gene has two allele's. If the two sides of the gene are the same then it is homogynous. If the gene carries two different alleles then it is heterzygous. It is the heterozygocity that provides the genetic diversity in the gene pool and controls some of the desired traits that we want to keep. Using Wright's and Hardiman's inbreed coefficients will give us the information to be considered when breeding. This explanation that I have set out here is indeed very simplistic. I would direct readers to the paper titled

COEFFICIENT OF INBREEDING

AN INVESTIGATION INTO WRIGHT'S EQUATION AND HARDIMAN'S METHOD

The reader will then understand the complexity of trying to give a simplistic way to express the two systems used on the PDB to arrive at the coefficient values. I prefer the Hardiman route.

The danger of very close inbreeding is that whilst achieving very quickly the desired trait it also stamps in the undesirable change in traits that we see today. Over a period of time many more health issues will arise as we are finding today in the showline bloodlines. These health issues will take generations to eradicate.

Mackenzie

You set type with your brood bitch, then as you breed in forthcoming breedings you select dogs that will minimize bad recessives while retaining your core phenotype. The key to breeding though is having in depth knowledge of genetics of dogs you are using. Most people who breed only have cursory knowledge, so they don't know they are increasing negative recessives until it's to late. But the biggest problem that breeders of today have regardless of the formula, is breeding for what they LIKE as opposed to breeding for what is best to maintain balance and vitality. Breeding for what you like, is speciality breeding, and although may enhance specific traits, it inadvertly leads to extremes and a decline in temperament and instincts. ( Temperament is not drives as you can have extreme drives also which lead to decrease in temperament and instincts).