Where are Old style lines in America still available? - Page 17

Speaking from the viewpoint of a parasite and naysayer I totally agree with Susie.  If the breeding philosophy of "the golden middle" was followed by all GSD breeders then the breed and the owners of GSD would be the beneficiary.  Susie .. my compliments .. your brilliant short paragraph on GSD breeding is the best thing I have ever seen written on this or any other forum.

But policedogs shouldn´t only have balldrive or being an overly sharp dog just because they also do bitework, that all people who just want a pet or a strictly sportdog may find such dogs less ideal doesn´t change the fact they are in fact versataile dogs who could be used for many different "real" task regardless if it´s nosework or protection or a combination of both. You still will find different characters in a litter that may be suited for one direction more than the other, but breeding for mostly show or sport will get you a less versatile dog I would think.

So, from everything I have read.....

There are now show dogs, sport dogs, working dogs (herding, police, military, service), performance dogs (obedience, tracking, agility, etc), and pets.

I agree Susie. It would be nice for one dog to do everything and breed for balanced dogs all the way around.

But, like the following poster said...there will be differences in a litter. 

I am curious what the temperament was like on the "working dogs" that people grew up with. Were they safe for families? Did they try to attack the mailman or a stranger who entered the yard by mistake? Or, could they discriminate situations?

 

Smiley, the good ones didn't. But as Susie has said, some of us tend to look back through rose coloured glasses, and maybe the 'good old days' weren't all THAT good!

However, this is what I personally know to be true: when I was a kid (50's and 60's), the GSD was the #1 guide dog for the blind as well as the #1 dog used for law enforcement. It was also a popular family pet, mainly due to the Rin Tin Tin movies and later, the TV show. I have had many, many old time breeders and owners tell me they didn't need a babysitter for their kids when their German Shepherd was on duty. They would prevent the kids from getting out of bounds (drag them back by their clothing, if needed!) and block them from climbing stairs or falling into the water.

The dogs that were winning in the show ring often had German blood, and schutzhund degrees. Schutzhund was just BARELY starting to get a foothold here through organizations like NASA (National Schutzhund Association). Many of the show dogs with titles were imports, and got their titles in Germany, as I don't think the American titles were recognized yet.

Today the #1 service dog is the golden retriever, or labrador. GSDs are viewed with suspicion by the general public, and not enough of the can meet the requirements to be a service dog anymore, due to both temperament and health issues. Police forces are starting to favour the malinois because they are cheaper and have fewer health and temperament problems. Due to the bad press the GSD has been getting, families with children are going for breeds that are regarded as more family friendly, and less driven.

Some of these changes are due to lifestyle changes over the years, and not just the changes in the dogs. For instance, in the 50's and 60's most moms stayed at home, and dogs weren't locked in crates all day because both parents were working, so it was easier to have a dog with higher drive than a lap dog or golden. People were more inclined to let a dog 'be a dog' and not humanize it and treat it as a kid with fur. Your parents taught you it wasn't a good idea to run up to a strange dog and throw your arms around its neck, and if you bothered the neighbours' dog, or a dog that was eating, and got bitten, it was your own damn fault, and no one went running to their lawyer!

Yes, there were 'cross dogs' that weren't good with kids or strangers, and if you were a responsible owner, you either kept that dog confined, or got rid of it. A dog was generally allowed one bite, and the law generally allowed owners quite a bit of slack if the person who got bitten was trespassing on the dog's property.

If your dog was loose, though, it was an entirely different story. Dogs caught going after livestock were (and in many places, still are) shot on sight. I think this happened more often then, because farm dogs were allowed to run loose, and there were no invisible fences to keep them on their property if they wanted to stray.

Hey Sun what an excellent post. And another thing I can remember was people didn't so much have fenced in yards etc., but it still wasn't the problem and all that it is now. People didn't use vets for every little thing.
Smiley first of all thanx for updatings pics--OMG she is everything I like to see and all wrapped up in a beautiful black suit.............I just wanted to comment on something you asked about the old working dogs. I once knew a black dog that was kept on a chain and he was a nice big boned stallion type dog. I have no clue of his lines of course--I was about 7 or 8--I used to roam the neighborhood and I knew all the dogs and some really stood out Satan was one of them. Well his owner always said he was so viscious and all and would bite--I know he barked on carried on that chain.  So I go down there one day, noone is around, so I decide to take him for a walk. I unhooked his chain and we went for a walk--with no leash of course--he stayed with me and when my Papa and the owner found us he was totally shocked that ole Satan had not torn me apart.  By the way this was 1960 or 61.
Sun I read your post on who you didn't put the poster up. I know you and I have talked about the Trommel lines many times. Also I forget who posted the pic of Degan--he is my girl's grandfather-s grandfather.  I think we discussed once about the dogs I saw in these old magazines that were Chs then--anyway not to go there again. I really like those lines and I like having them close up. Here is my girl and her littermate--linebred on Trommel lines.
 

Discernment is nothing new in the GSD or for many breeds of dogs.  I have several dogs that wouldn't bite a child or hurt a puppy that are strong and tough dogs with plenty of aggression .. the 1960's dogs were no more discerning than my 2009 - 2012 models.  I know that they wouldn't bite a child or hurt a puppy because I have tried it with them.  I use some of my toughest and most aggressive dogs to train puppies up to 8-9 months on proper dog ettiquette and behavior around older adult dogs .. they don't harm the younger dogs even if they are the same sex but they do teach them manners and respect.  I think the Germans call this type training "washing their heads roughly".  The Satan story just points out that Satan's owner didn't know his own dog very well not that the 1960's GSD had anything special that the modern ones don't.  I do have a couple of dogs that can't be trusted around puppies or other smaller or weaker dogs .. this I also know by experience and observation.  Those two are for sale.

Agreee...good post Sun!

Von.....such pretty dogs and very cool story!!!

I saw that Royalair GSD has dogs linebred on the Trommel lines..they seem like old style bloodlines. But, were german shepherds that big in the old days?

Also, which working lines are black and red/tan? I am wondering if the black and red/tan lines that are working lines have different bloodlines than the black or sable working lines. And..thus..if maybe they are an older type?

Also, are they any kennels not mentioned that continue to linebreed on the Trommel lines?

Thats my route/goal Susie.
    Your NOT going to get any litter, where every dog from it excels as police k9, or top sport competion dog. And lets hope that every pup Iin a litter  is not pet quality only.
     IF it were that easy to have every litter be TOP dog, Breeding would be more of an art than a science. You need realustic expectations of what you 'might' get, when you know what you are putting Iinto the pairing.
    At the end of the day, if you did your best to produce quality, healthy sound dogs,  you did good.
When I have a litter of pups, I am expecting each and every puppy to be an asset to the breed, health and temperment first. Each and every German Shepherd pup should have the abilities to multi-task.Be Iit that the task is not the same for everyone.
    Not everyone wants a dog that eexcels at everything. 
Everyone DOES however expect a healthy sound German Shepherd, that also has a natural protective instinct and a loyal disposition.

Very interesting thread.. 

I dont think the golden middle has ever lead to exceptional, except by mistake and not often, in building much of anything. If all shepherds where golden middle for sure there would be no pdb to discuss it. :)~ The golden middle for me, is always a watered down vision from individual expression. Son/Daughter I want straight C's from you this year, stay away from them there B's and the A's, who says that?

I think the uniqueness of individual ideals, within a general standered, offers the broadest chance for exceptionalism. The dog has too broad a capabilties to shoot for the middle of everything, imo.  Its the lack of a strong, varied pool with a focus on this or that strength, thats doing the breed in. I dont see how we are not way better off with a general standered and individual flare.