Hock walker? - Page 17

Nice videos, this dog's structure has certainly not slowed him down! There is a real good point in this thread that should not be missed, like it or not, there is a reason the SV is taking the breed beyond where you see it now. Gustav had some very good, respectful posts and named some very good dogs of the past. However I am going to agree with Ibrahim, todays VAs, speaking structurally only, are superior. The biggest success that I have seen recently is better fronts, they seem to be more common among the better bred conformation dogs. At the heart of the disagreements we have is where do we find the perfect GSD. Was it epitomized in the dogs at the turn of the 20th century as some have posted here? Was the perfect dog here in the 1960s and still lives on in the working lines? Is the GSD still in the beginning, we still have a long way before we are consistently producing dogs as stated in the standard? We can not change what the SV does, like it or not they are the ruling body appointed by the founders. You should not mindlessly bash every conformation dog because you do not agree with what the SV does. I have been around a few conformation shows and can tell you the judge will not place your dog ahead because it has a roached back. This is a fallacy, somewhere someone saw a dog with poor structure being placed behind a dog with much better structure and all they could see with their untrained eye is what they think is a roached back. Don't get stuck in the 1980s, see what is happening now. A few years ago I showed my sable female in a handful of shows where the competition was tough. She has an absolutely straight back, no one can say she has a roach but she always placed amongst the high dollar imports and the top bitches of the top kennels. I do not feel she was discriminated against because of her color pattern or her top line. To the contrary, her critiques were impressive I could see that the judges really liked her. I have said way to much, many of you will dismiss my post and keep thinking from a narrow point of view. My only hope is some new person to this forum will have a rebuttal to some of the more uneducated posts. I have no problem with the true working people who have a sincere and educated disagreement with the direction the breed is taking. Make your point intelligibly, give specifics. To those who can only brand dogs as roached back hock walkers, grow up. Any one who is not willing to consider another point of view does so at their own peril, you have no chance to better yourself or others. Temperament and drives are separate but a legitimate discussion we should have on another thread. There is a wide range of opinions on this subject give specifics, do not let your thoughts devolve into useless labels.      

Another excellent post, Markobytes.

I have no idea why, but this is the second thread where I cannot see the video, just a black box.

Yes, good post Markobytes. It is easy to stay in a 'box' of one's own creation or past experience. It's good to stop and 'check' if it's still valid.

Well said Markobytes, those who may disagree with you on certain points will have difficulty disagreeing with the line of logic in your thoughts plus the honesty in your motives.

Ibrahim

I always try to remember to be respectful even when not agreeing. I will not belabor this point any further. I will just say that in the mid seventies I actuality was in the American show ring. I walked away not only because of the temperament of these dogs, but more importantly, the type dog that was being created,by the exclusion of all the outside blood to chase the Holy Grail of gait. You could see the changes taking place in shoulders,stifles, hocks, and angulation. I told anyone that would listen that the continued recycling of the same lines would lead to ?,,,,,well something different , lol Well, God blessed me with being able to look at the American show dog 35 years later.......a different type dog has emerged. I started mixing Czech/West working 15 years ago when many pure sport people could not see that the infusion of the new Czech blood was more important than their differences, for long term diversity in the sport. Now 15 years later there are many Top sport competitors and breeders that wouldn't have been caught dead with Czech blood,competing with mixes. My point is that I don't think I will be able to see the WGSL in the next thirty years, but some of you will, and if function loses completely to form......maybe some of you will remember the rants of Gustav. Maybe not?! Anyway, time tells all.

DO you go to a special class to teach show dogs to gait or do they just do it? Is it expected in the Korung? 

That last picture of the WL female looks more showline to me as well but what do I know I only have straight backed dogs.

Not all ASL breeders are happy with their dogs and some are doing what they think is the right thing to try to make the improvements they want. For some of us that means breeding our ASL's to GSL's. The GSDCA's judge's education committee is trying to see that the presenters stress correct movement, not the flying trot where dogs must be moved out at top speed, but it's a tough egg to crack. Many of the breeder-judges think that GSD's should be judged on side gait while being moved out at top speed. Slow down? No way...let em rip. Clearly the members of the GSDCA are nowhere close to agreeing that these dogs need to be slowed down in the ring in order to observe and evaluate their structure more correctly. Maybe they are afraid of what they may see?

A few months ago at a GSD specialty a 11 month old puppy dog got a lot of attention when he was awared best puppy in show by a respected breeder-judge. What made it a win worth mentioning here was he was sired by a Sch3, GSL import, his g-grandsire. We believe this is the first time the best puppy at a specialty was sired by a GSL out of a 1/4 GSL bitch.  He is a moderate dog, not overdone in any way and has been bred for performance and conformation. His owner plans to show him in both SV and AKC venues and hopes to title him in both.

Some "AKC people" are really trying to do the right thing and make a difference by breeding for a more moderate dog that can title in both SV and AKC venues.

I agree - that WL female does look like a SL.

I have pretty much stopped posting on threads like this because it is a debate that has no end or conclusion. Gustav has posted some things that can only be learned from experience and no amount of reading internet posts can really gain another that experience or change an opinion.

My experience pretty much mirrors his as far as the results of breeding for show and chasing gait, which is the holy grail of the Am. dog and seems to be more and more the goal in the GSL.

 I doubt that in the end, the results will differ greatly. A dog that is useful as a pet or show only. And that is how any breeder of Am. dogs I have known class their dogs, show quality or pet. The honest ones make no pretense they are good for anything else.

jmo,
Rik

   

@ Rik....you say things much less threatening than I, and I suspect you are more effective than I....good post!
@ Blitzen, I understand a few ASL are doing this, but 35 years later, now the move??????, but my point is that the GSL dogs are travelling the same path, using the same genetic formula, in search of the same things, using the same arguments, in spite of evidences contrary....it seems like Deja Vu to me.....but again time tells all. And when the few start to wake up, the overall condition of the lines is very compromised....actually the compromised condition of the ASL is the ONLY reason they are using GSL blood.
Take care