Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 17

good point there gustav

it would be nice if you bred two WUSV competitors , and get the guarantee that the offspring will also be WUSV  competitors

or that KKL1  bred to KKL 1 will only produce KKL1  dogs


unfortunately all the money and trainingtime spent on a dog will not pass on to the next generation

Unfortunately Duke, dogs dont know how to read so they wont be able to tell the difference in sleeve brands as they are running down the field.  But can they tell the difference in a sleeve and a bite suit?  Yup.  Can you assume a dog trained to bite a sleeve will understand it can now bite a suit.  Nope.  Your example was poor.  You can just make another one up to prove your point though.

dont need to , programmed preymonsters do have problems with changed circumstances , where well balanced dogs with good defence will bite whatever the decoy is wrapped in that day
like I said , its got nothing to do with training

about the sleeve thing , Ive seen dogs fail however when presented a blue scHh sleeve for the first time

 where well balanced dogs with good defence will bite whatever the decoy is wrapped in that day
like I said , its got nothing to do with training

I don't care how well balanced a dog is...if he's taught to bite a sleeve, it takes a great deal to bring them down to the leg...or to bite the body...not saying it can't be done...just that a dog goes with the familiar....and it ain't got anything to do with being balanced..IMNSHO

 Funny, I always hear people who have never titled a dog talk about how it's not important, but rarely the other way around.  Wonder why?  I also always get a good chuckle when people complain about "prey monsters".  What they don't get is many great police K9s, especially many mals are prey monsters, which makes them great because they will bite all day in prey, clear headed, great dogs, agression over prey, no problem.      

Duke, we're not talking about an exercise that puts a dog in defense.  We are talking about a prey exercise, run down the field and bite.

Preymonsters are used all the time as police dogs; and, according to the guys I train with who actually train police dogs, prey monsters are more effective than more defensive dogs and even "well ballanced" dogs.

Edit: Sue and I posted same time.  Good post, Sue

hahaha we sure did, didn't we? 

Anyway, I certainly don't think titles are the be all and end all, but as a rule,  I do think  titling breeding stock is a good idea.  Certainly there are exceptions, and of course you don't breed to paper titles, but trials are what we have to judge dogs, standardized testing is what we have, is it perfect, no but it is the start point, at least as far as I'm concerned, the minimum, just not the end point.

I can agree with them who say there should be some form av testing, but I understand this could be difficult in US for example. On the other hand I really don´t care what people are doing in US or australia, breeders in europe have no need for buying dogs from US I suppose. As long as there is good breeders in my own country I´m happy enough there is at least some minimal standard for breeding, what goes around in other places is nothing I can do anything about. It´s hard enough to advocate the workingdogs when the majority I guess in SV and also the similar breed club here is mostly intressted in shows and to certain extent SCH. The problem I see with the german breed survey is that I don´t see the value if a dog is tested in another sport or service also need a breed-survey with a SCH-title, this may be fine in germany where SCH is the main selection-critera but here it´s pointless to have as a demand for all breedingdogs. I think it´s better the way it is, everyone can test their dogs in a standardized mentalttest/insticttest, not only those that must do it for beeing breed, but also the littermates can do this easily without having any intresst in bitework and SCH. This doesn´t say it all, but is a good complement for see some basic drives and mentality in a litter, most working-dog litters are going to have at least a few dogs doing some kind of sport or service anyway. 

 It really makes no difference to us over here in Europe what the Dog people in the USA and Australia think of the SV , In most part they are nothing to do with it.
  As for Australia well for the size of the country how big is German Shepherds there say for ScH and what else they use them for, I would not think in great numbers certainly in the Sport side, i guess someone will say which way it is over in that country.
I can see no logic of anyone outside Europe running down the SV, They have there own governing bodies and it seems they are not even happy with them as well. So it does make a person think a bit.
The German Breed Survey is what we aim for and abide by, What other countries go by is up to them. And it seems strange people in the USA think the way they do because most of there bloodlines in the past came over from Europe and they are still buying from Europe,
What i ask is why the need to do so with the amount of German Shepherds in the USA, If the lines they invested in over the years were handled correctly and worked accordingly then there should not be a need to keep importing from Europe, You do not see the Guys over here buying the Bloodlines back from the USA, They preserve better what they have and have no need to go further afield than there own back door
Steve1

Quote: IPO/SchH dog learns to bite sleeve.  That is what they have done over and over again.  When they go for a courage test, they aim for the sleeve, because that is what they have been trained to do.  So now, in Duke's example, all of a sudden they are running at a helper that doesn't have the sleeve.  Dogs have a hard time extrapolating ideas.

Ok, if you are having a lot of trouble getting a dog to go from sleeve to suit, then your problem is the dog. I have seen dogs have a bit of a problem with this. Just not the good ones. You send the dog and he bites. It will be ugly, but he will bite. Yet another test that people will skip on. WILL THE DOG ENGAGE THE DECOY. Or, you can take your time and teach a dog to bite a suit. But then, you will never know what the dog is. You skipped that part. : )



 QUOTE :  It doesn't matter how much the dog want to bite, its never had the experience running at some one and biting a suit.  To say that these are crappy dogs is quick and poor judgement and shows lack of understanding of dog training.  In your theory Jeff, a police dog should be able to bite a real person with no training because the police dog should love to bite.  Thats just not how it works.

Not how it works for you. Selling dogs to police depts is a business. Most PD's just want a dog that does the job according to their "test" and now most of them want some sort of guarantee, usually two years. It is a business, so you train the dogs to look the way that they want them to look, and that is what you base your reputation on. They get dogs of a certain level, and you get paid.

If you had to use dogs like I am talking about, you would starve to death, go out of business. We are not talking reality here really, most people that comment on these threads have not done much of anything.

I have sent dogs that only knew the sleeve on the suit, and other than that weird having to target the forearm problem, most run down the field and do it because of the previous situation and patterns. I also do not have the decoy run all over fuck the first time, or have them pressure the dog, as ring stuff is "all prey" according to most of the "balanced" dog type people here, and I would not want to watch the dog struggle in "all prey". I find it both amusing and interesting that most people will poo poo the ring sports, but of course it must be SOOOOO different if it is for police work. HA HA  Sorry, had to throw that in there. People and their "theory". LOL

So the difference to me is that a dog that actually has not been doing Sch for 2 or 3 years, and loves to bite will bite the decoy in the suit without an introduction. Those that have been on the sleeve for a while that love to bite just take a bit longer, like maybe two sessions. I have owned dogs that had never been on the sleeve or suit, that will bite if aggressed upon. One or two bit the shit out of the decoy (in the suit) and a couple it was not real pretty, but they did bite the decoy.

Some people have to make a living off selling dogs to police depts. So they go through the steps. Their goal is to produce as many of these dogs to sell as possible. Some people ( READ ME ) want to know what the dog is made of, and always want to see if the dog can do the work in regards to wether or not to use the dog for breeding. The difference is how we look at things. I am looking for a strong dog that I can use for breeding, and you are looking to sell dogs. Apples and oranges really.