The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 14

Vk4gsd - Perhaps you would care to elaborate on what you would do in your small way to open up the gene pool.

Mackenzie

no, don't you dare put it back on me.

 

YOU tell ME how one expands the gene pool of a breed as a whole?

 

""The breed as a whole needs to expand the gene pool worldwide."

OK vk4gsd you don't know.  Fair enough, you can go now.

Mackenzie

While I agree that it is always inadvisable for too much power to lie

in the hands of one or two individuals,  I still think you are taking

what Herr Martin said too literally / as of too great importance.

Strange, what he was arguing neither : a) resulted in a change to

the 'Colour' section of the Standard,  or b) caused more than a minor

ripple in the rest of Europe, at the time or since.

The Germans, contrary to some opinions, may have a set of Rules

to work with that other countries do not,  but the German people /

dog breeders  are certainly not  "under the SV's thumb" to the

extent that some people seem to believe.  [Else there'd be no

White Shepherd kennels in Germany, for instance.]   The Sieger

Show is not the only place dogs get judged in Germany;  if exhibitors

believed NO grey, or Black, dogs would be given the slightest

consideration,  ok if you had a nice sable dog you took it where it

would be seen by another SV judge  (of which not all were, as you

yourself point out, in thrall to Uncle Herman - indeed not all were

even German, by long before the 80s.)  or you put it into the HGH arena,

or such.

You did not all say "Alright, yessir, we'll never breed another grey

dog".  Or the Von Arlett kennel, for one, would never have prospered.

In the UK, Mrs Beach was extremely well-respected by a lot of our

exhibitors, albeit the split between 'Germanic' and 'Alsatian' was well

under way -  but when she proclaimed she did not like sables and did

not wish to judge them, the Show scene here did not crumble into

submission, either.    There were not many greys being shown - but then

there weren't many greys working in Trials or Obedience, either.  There

must have been a few around though, they are/were still being produced !

Oh ... and I think Dorothy's prejudice was entirely her own, I don't think she

was apt to slavishly follow Herr Martin's directives.

great non answer mack.

 

please do post when you have gained the magical powers of creation to go about  expanding the gene pool worldwide of a closed book breed.

 

 

 

 

All breed books are closed, and I think a narrow mind cannot conceive of world wide gene pool.

Hundmutter - I knew Dorothy Beach when was at her peak some 45 years ago.  She was strictly an "alsatianist" with no enthusiasm for German Bloodlines.  Also you have not grasped how powerful Hermann Martin was.  People that opposed him were quickly pushed aside as was the case for Herr Alfred Hahn.

The show scene in the UK during the seventies was far removed from what was happening in Germany.  I do not know of one grey dog being promoted by any SV Judge in Germany at either Landesgruppen or Sonderschau'/ during Herr Martin's Presidency other than the Uran son Joker v Arlett who made V17 at the HauptzuchtSiegerschau.

Dorothy Beach's era and Hermann Martin'era are miles apart in time and opinion.

Mackenzie

She was still around, Showing and mainly Judging during the late 70s & early 80s, while still beating the anti-sable drum.  Of course she was an alsatianist;

when did that ever stop them quoting the SVs authority over the breed when

it suited them ?

You are failing to see my point, which is that grey dogs have never [even really at the beginning of the breed] been particularly favoured by the majority of those involved in any way with the GSD  (although that is now starting to change a bit).  So for 100 years they have been a definite minority.  Wishing there were more

of them, whether in the Show Ring or on the Training Field, sadly cannot make

it so, or pin down a date at which that situation specifically came about or work

out who is a scapegoat to blame for it.  But they have always had their fans,

always been around, even if only in the 'pet' role.  Since it really does not make much difference to the temperament or abilities, a good dog is a good

dog even if it is grey, IME,  it does not seem worth getting hot under the

collar about.

I received some interesting messages from a friend who reads here, but doesn't post. I thought it was worth sharing and got permission to do so. I'm going to delete specific names of people and dogs to insure her privacy.

First after being mentored by top K-9 breeder and trainer _______ as to his goals and how to choose a prospect for a female first then he had me listen to a k9 officer of the police dept in _________ and then he knowing I had owned a Guard trained K9 for my automotive shop, he knew I had experience with a HARD HARD PP dog...so he sold me a female to start with..
THE k9 officer trained me first by having me come to his kennel at his home near my new home in ________.MY k9 died.
I moved to ______...so I then ordered from _________ a female that was  guaranteed with assurance the breeder would mentor me anytime.. 
 
We have instinct like gsd do,
 
I worked for a year training her and me... then I  got a male as I moved back to my home down south. The breeder got me intouch with two police depts...I trained with them...HE sent me home with a male out of another one of _______ line...hoping I would some day breed..HE said I knew how to be ALPHA>..
WHEN 2 top men of the breeding world beckoned me to join the word of gsd I did...I loved my guard dog Ray and there was none like him an import..  SO when I bred the two later after they were ofaed, I kept  two out of first litter,,,then three out of the second litter called the Three Muskateers...you have seen pics of them I posted several times... I then kept one out of the next three litters each..
Ofa and trained under a schutz club in ____ where a German judge ate my lunch for not training my sable girls because I did not like sable...NOW I LOVE them....lol
I had many mentors who I took their suggestions and read Susan Barwig and Her partners books and learned to spot the traits I knew were described by men and women of the sport...Police men I worked with..I saw errors in breeding of other dogs..I could spot it immediately...THANKFULLY   ______ got me the best pair...BUT until I watched all the dogs I KEPT out of the litters I bred , I would not know the weakness' that were there... ONE was  the ________dog was great and produced a great working dog but they had faults in health...tumors arose on them at 6 yrs up...so I ditched that line...also some of the females out of ______ were nerve bags...I would not know that if I had not kept three females out of each litter I bred ______ to my daughters of my foundation......but do not even think of arguing with _____ or anyone who is his staunch people including police men...they breed them like coca cola flows >>>they do not want to know the faults..so I just eased out of the line...MOST of mine were awesome______ kids and two still live near me...they do not have the tumors_____is known for...SO I eliminated the breed of them...THEN _______produced the next bunch of great dogs..and only to my females out of west german /show ./work line...NOT someone elses dogs...I do not trust anyone but me to evaluate,.
 
THAT IS HOW I learned...I put a few B titles and mostly I had top breeders and also ______ to coach and teach me to train and evaluate...I refused also to sell to people not fit for my dogs...I had an inner sense on people...YOU have to be the kind of woman or man who loves the dog...not the sport or the show floor...they are secondary...the DOG has to be your inner self partner and if anyone would just listen to the dog...THE DOG tells you anything you want to know...HE is your brain to whether he is worthy....most people have no clue what Breed Worthy is...
 
UNless you invest in your own line and keep a specimen out of every litter to watch , train , love and become an authority with mentors of the breed and I mean real men and women who take pride in what they produce...NO monkey business in the dog world...FINDING these kinds of people who know the dog inside out,,,medical , physcal to the very movement , and inch of their dog, they wont ever know what or how to breed. I do not trust any mans word ..I want hands on my dog or any pup I am gonna breed..YES I read and research and talk ...but until I see the pup and have him or her in my care, the pup is just a begining of a long road of find the answer...IS this GSD one who meets all the needs and is one that I consider the best for a breeder dog..
Many a breeder says IT is the roll of the dice...YES , we have no control over some genetics that are inbedded in the inherited family that many times we cannot know...AS always humans do things in every generation to cover truths up...ME or anyone in breeding hears these deeds and we can only wonder ...is one of my dogs ancesters one of those who got named wrong or came from another male or a false deed...WE do not know ...THAT is one factor that many do not know or understand...LIES of the past get passed down...how do we know...we sometimes never know...suprises pop up and sometimes the truth comes out...but Humans are in charge and no man is perfect nor can we see future or past lies..

 

The problem is breeders want to get a high placing at the Sieger show, so they can make money by selling their puppies. In order to do that, they have to breed to the type of dogs that are getting high placings in SV shows. This will never result in a broadening of the gene pool

The dogs that are currently placing have lots of hind angulation, are often oversized, and have heavy 'stallion type' heads. I follow Louis Donald on FB, and I remember him quoting a GSD breeder earlier this year who did not want to breed dogs that had extreme hind angulation, but said that in order to place in the SV shows, he/she was going to have to start breeding for this type of dog.

Obviously, show line/working line crosses are NOT going to have the sort of angulation or conformation to gain high placings in SV style conformation shows. It's money that drives the GSD market, and as much as I would like to see that change, it's not going to happen.

IMO, Alfred Hahn (Busecker Schloss) was one of the best GSD breeders of the 20th century, and I always look for his dogs in the pedigrees of dogs that interest me. Unfortunately, he only gets the credit he deserves in working line circles.