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by Markobytes on 20 February 2013 - 18:02
This thread seems to be a continuance of the thread "Has dog training actually improved?" I can agree with Mr Pragers observation that some trainers use electric as a convenience and they lose the thought process of how can I make it work without electric? But the reverse is also true that it sometimes takes more of a thought process to use electric. I can appreciate Mr Prager thinking of the dog's well being and it's relationship with the handler. I do not think however that the responses he got were meant to be personal attacks. The responses have answered the question that training has improved not just in equipment but also in how knowledge is brought into actual use. I have deferred to people with more knowledge and experience than me and have held back from posting but the no-down-no marker idea is wrong in my view and is a throw back to old training methods. To the question of an electric collar being necessary to train precision? probably not.
by johan77 on 20 February 2013 - 21:02
The absolut top performance today, if we talk about IPO, is not so much about corrections or e-collars I would say, it´s the more advanced trainingmetods focusing more on rewarding the dogs and not punishing them, this is also showing in the work, extreme controll with very high drive dogs that still are looking very happy. Isn´t happy dogs with no signs of fear of the handler supposed to be awared in IPO according to the rules anyway? Training with very positive methods is not new really , if we see a top obedience people they have done very well with training that have less corrections if any, like this example, second place at world champinship in obedinece, she trains with no corrections for competition, and have very good precision. Dogtraining is constantly evolving, what someone did just 2-3 years ago may not be the best method today if reaching top level, what someone believed was a truth for 10 years ago is not necessarily a truth today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go72mAWXRn8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go72mAWXRn8
by Slamdunc on 20 February 2013 - 21:02
Johan,
exactly!
exactly!
by Prager on 21 February 2013 - 20:02
by johan77 on 20 February 2013 - 21:02
johan77
Posts: 178
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 09:46 am The absolut top performance today, if we talk about IPO, is not so much about corrections or e-collars I would say, it´s the more advanced trainingmetods focusing more on rewarding the dogs and not punishing them, this is also showing in the work, extreme controll with very high drive dogs that still are looking very happy. Isn´t happy dogs with no signs of fear of the handler supposed to be awared in IPO according to the rules anyway? Training with very positive methods is not new really , if we see a top obedience people they have done very well with training that have less corrections if any, like this example, second place at world champinship in obedinece, she trains with no corrections for competition, and have very good precision. Dogtraining is constantly evolving, what someone did just 2-3 years ago may not be the best method today if reaching top level, what someone believed was a truth for 10 years ago is not necessarily a truth today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go72mAWXRn8
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Johan I agree with you.
Johan yes the final product of training must be happy dog, but that does not mean that the dog will not get corrected. Or that he does not fear certain repercussions thus is avoiding behaviors which causes them. Also keep in mind that while you may get away with + only training in competition where unusual distraction are non existent, you will not get away with it for very long in every day life. That is why ( one of the reasons) many extreme competition dogs are kept in kennels.
Prager Hans
P.S.Just keep in mind that according to Jim since it is not you on the video that you are "disingenuous."
by Jeffs on 21 February 2013 - 22:02
Let's say the ecollar is on low. The dog barely feels it. It's more of a tickle. The dog is receiving the stimulation and once he gets to the correct position, the stimulation is removed. Positive reward - removal of the slightly irritating stimulation.
How would this be different than rewarding a hungry dog with food?
That begs the question - can the same results be achieved with a clicker? The dog associates the Clicker with the reward so wouldn't the clicker provide immediate reward just as the removal of the stimulation?
I'm sure there is a reason for using the ecollar on low, low, low level.
How would this be different than rewarding a hungry dog with food?
That begs the question - can the same results be achieved with a clicker? The dog associates the Clicker with the reward so wouldn't the clicker provide immediate reward just as the removal of the stimulation?
I'm sure there is a reason for using the ecollar on low, low, low level.
by Prager on 23 February 2013 - 08:02
Jeffs, your description of use of e collar have perfectly described "negative reinforcement".
However your reward of the hungry dog with food if he performs is a "positive reinforcement."
That is the one difference.
Next difference is that the dog see you giving him food and associates the positive of getting food form you, with you.
E collar trainers will try to convince you that the dog can be trained so that he understands that the e collar stimulation is also coming form you. But this is rare and the reality is different. Most trainer do not care about this aspect and as a matter of fact some e-collars are / were sold with naming it as a benefit that the dog does not know that the correction is coming from you. I believe that it is more sound and better for the relationship between you and the dog if the dog clearly understands that the positive and negative is coming form you the trainer and subsequently the handler.
The next one is easy to understand. . If the dog have ever got high stimulation on the collar by mistake or intentionally then he will will associate or anticipate such high stimulation while getting even really low one.
Prager Hans
However your reward of the hungry dog with food if he performs is a "positive reinforcement."
That is the one difference.
Next difference is that the dog see you giving him food and associates the positive of getting food form you, with you.
E collar trainers will try to convince you that the dog can be trained so that he understands that the e collar stimulation is also coming form you. But this is rare and the reality is different. Most trainer do not care about this aspect and as a matter of fact some e-collars are / were sold with naming it as a benefit that the dog does not know that the correction is coming from you. I believe that it is more sound and better for the relationship between you and the dog if the dog clearly understands that the positive and negative is coming form you the trainer and subsequently the handler.
The next one is easy to understand. . If the dog have ever got high stimulation on the collar by mistake or intentionally then he will will associate or anticipate such high stimulation while getting even really low one.
Prager Hans
by Prager on 23 February 2013 - 09:02
In order to eliminate any misunderstanding I will put here skinny on training as I understand it.
I will say this about fear.
Dogs act out of need for survival. They eat, drink , breed, hunt and avoid dangers in order to survive.
All training methods tap into these needs except maybe breeding.
Positive - ads on the behavior and is pleasant . ( petting, playing, praising with higher then normal pitched happy voice, food)
Negative - subtracts from the behavior. Negative is unpleasant causes the dog to avoid it. There are many types of it starting with growling deep NO , not rewarding the dog with treat if he does not perform, to e collar stimulation and correction on a choker or pinch collar which simulates dominant's dog bite on the neck.
It is based on fear which may be negligible like small discomfort or it can be bigger then small negligible discomfort. Never less it is to be avoided by the dog. Dog naturally understand that there is potential for escalating levels of negative.Thus the dog will respond to negligible negatived nudge in order to avoid the higher not so negligible negative correction. In other words even so the dog does not necessarily fear small negligible correction dog is not necessarily avoiding it just on it's own merit, but dog is also avoiding it in order to avoid potentially more harsh correction which he fears.
For example if you would withdraw the food reward for non performance of a command dog then taps into inherited dogs natural fear of potential starvation.
Negative / Positive are 2 different sides of the same coin. One can not exist without the other. If you use just negative for training then your training will generate dog which will improperly act ONLY or MOSTLY out of FEAR.
If on the other end of the spectrum you use positive only approach then you will have happy working dog, but you will not be able to establish leadership position and your dog may do well in distraction free environment of a trial field but in everyday life you most likely will run into trouble of a minor or major dimension.
Thus the training must be using + and - fairly and in a way the dog understands it because his inherited instincts dictates so . Both + and - must be used as needed and in proper doses. It must not be over done or under done.
Next what is important to understand is that there are fazes of training.
During the first fazes where you 1. are building the drive or other basis for reward
2. you are then teaching the dog what command sit or down and so on means
you must be positive only.
During later fazes of training ( conditioning and user fazes) after the dog understands the command you will need to use positive and negative reinforcement.
If you use these properly , fairly, clearly and with proper strength, duration and timing, then the dog will be trained in balanced way, respect you as a leader and be happy worker.
I also will stress that I believe that in order to be clear with the dog the dog must understand that the corrections are coming from you.
Prager Hans
I will say this about fear.
Dogs act out of need for survival. They eat, drink , breed, hunt and avoid dangers in order to survive.
All training methods tap into these needs except maybe breeding.
Positive - ads on the behavior and is pleasant . ( petting, playing, praising with higher then normal pitched happy voice, food)
Negative - subtracts from the behavior. Negative is unpleasant causes the dog to avoid it. There are many types of it starting with growling deep NO , not rewarding the dog with treat if he does not perform, to e collar stimulation and correction on a choker or pinch collar which simulates dominant's dog bite on the neck.
It is based on fear which may be negligible like small discomfort or it can be bigger then small negligible discomfort. Never less it is to be avoided by the dog. Dog naturally understand that there is potential for escalating levels of negative.Thus the dog will respond to negligible negatived nudge in order to avoid the higher not so negligible negative correction. In other words even so the dog does not necessarily fear small negligible correction dog is not necessarily avoiding it just on it's own merit, but dog is also avoiding it in order to avoid potentially more harsh correction which he fears.
For example if you would withdraw the food reward for non performance of a command dog then taps into inherited dogs natural fear of potential starvation.
Negative / Positive are 2 different sides of the same coin. One can not exist without the other. If you use just negative for training then your training will generate dog which will improperly act ONLY or MOSTLY out of FEAR.
If on the other end of the spectrum you use positive only approach then you will have happy working dog, but you will not be able to establish leadership position and your dog may do well in distraction free environment of a trial field but in everyday life you most likely will run into trouble of a minor or major dimension.
Thus the training must be using + and - fairly and in a way the dog understands it because his inherited instincts dictates so . Both + and - must be used as needed and in proper doses. It must not be over done or under done.
Next what is important to understand is that there are fazes of training.
During the first fazes where you 1. are building the drive or other basis for reward
2. you are then teaching the dog what command sit or down and so on means
you must be positive only.
During later fazes of training ( conditioning and user fazes) after the dog understands the command you will need to use positive and negative reinforcement.
If you use these properly , fairly, clearly and with proper strength, duration and timing, then the dog will be trained in balanced way, respect you as a leader and be happy worker.
I also will stress that I believe that in order to be clear with the dog the dog must understand that the corrections are coming from you.
Prager Hans
by rtdmmcintyre on 23 February 2013 - 13:02
I know this has been a rather emotional thread for some. I personally appreciate everyone's participation. When It comes to dog training I have never had a know it all attitude, (not saying anyone here is exhibiting a know it all attitude only reflecting on myself) and I personally have picked up many positive pointers. My attitude as far as training dogs has always been that to train dogs effectively I have to firmly be convinced of my training methods. If I lack confidence the dog will sense my unsure attitude and will respond accordingly according to their own makeup. Therefore one method of training may work exceptionally well for one person and one dog but may be terrible for another. And the same true for the other person. But I also believe strongly that not all training methods will work for all dogs and you have to be not only adaptable but also willing to change methods all together for particular personalities that the dog may exhibit. I personally have seen dogs that particular trainers couldn't work with and gave up on that excelled under another. And even though I don't like that first trainers methods It produced results and worked well for others. Just not in my personality to train that particular way. And as long as it isn't illegal or immoral and it works for them then so be it.
Once again I want to thank you all for such an informative thread even though strongly differing viewpoints.
Reggie
Once again I want to thank you all for such an informative thread even though strongly differing viewpoints.
Reggie
by Gustav on 23 February 2013 - 16:02
@Reggie
by johan77 on 23 February 2013 - 17:02
Prager, I guess most people are not training 100% "positive" in all situations, but as the question was precision and e-collar it´s often competition people think about I suppose, because there is where the more extreme stylish precision is needed for doing well. In competions, like IPO or even more so in obedience it seems the positive methods without physical correction has shown to be really effective, to say you need an e-collar or even prong because you have to "much dog" is probably more to do with most people are not good trainers enough and hence rely more on punishing behaviours.
How good results you get is depending on how well you master a certain way of training I suppose, but I don´t get how a reward based system is not so much different than a dog that works to avoid the e-collar, negative reinforcment, even if it´s on low setting I guess the dog finds it annoying enough, why else would he care about it, and how strong does you have to use is depending on situation and the trainer, just like most who use a choke collar do more than barely touch the leash if needing a correction.
How good results you get is depending on how well you master a certain way of training I suppose, but I don´t get how a reward based system is not so much different than a dog that works to avoid the e-collar, negative reinforcment, even if it´s on low setting I guess the dog finds it annoying enough, why else would he care about it, and how strong does you have to use is depending on situation and the trainer, just like most who use a choke collar do more than barely touch the leash if needing a correction.
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