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by Slamdunc on 28 December 2012 - 20:12
Wade,
It's good to hear from you! I hope all is going well.
Cliff spot on:
Many people don't realize there are many subliminal aspects to drive, temperament, and hardness that need to work fluidly in transition to make good working or sport dog. When one aspect of drive, temperament or hardness is so extreme that its difficult for the dog to transition to other aspects....then we have problems.jmo
It's good to hear from you! I hope all is going well.
Cliff spot on:
Many people don't realize there are many subliminal aspects to drive, temperament, and hardness that need to work fluidly in transition to make good working or sport dog. When one aspect of drive, temperament or hardness is so extreme that its difficult for the dog to transition to other aspects....then we have problems.jmo
by Hundmutter on 28 December 2012 - 21:12
Can I echo the others on how interesting and helpful this
discussion has been ? Thanks, guys.
discussion has been ? Thanks, guys.
by aaykay on 29 December 2012 - 07:12
I can show you dogs that are 5 - 6 years old and will not settle down in the house after working all day if a toy is present. Remove the toy and the dog settles very nicely. These are high dirve.strong dogs that are on the go when there is something to do. I do not view that as a nerve issue. Some dogs need to be taught "capping" and the proper outlet for their drives. To me this can often be a training issue or it can be the dog. It depends on the dog and the situation.
Could be, Jim. However, having a dog (the bi-color in my avatar) that is absolutely high-energy and operating at 200% in the field but is absolutely calm and settled in the house (no "bouncing off the walls" or needing any other thing to calm him down), I associate that with one with a foundation of solid nerves. A person who is unfamiliar with the dog and seeing him in the crate for the first time, might make the bad mistake of thinking that this literal volcano is a pretty dull guy......far, far from reality, since even from within the crate, those 2 eyes are boring holes right through the guest, weighing and analyzing ! The only time he would bark explosively from within his crate is when he hears something out-of-the-ordinary somewhere in the vicinity, and during those times, he is nearly always right to have alerted.
No signs of discomfort or jumpiness or destructiveness, even when spending over 14 hours in the crate (during a long drive etc) but the second he is on the job, he is at 200% (I doubt any "prey loaded, bouncing off the walls" dog can match his high energy levels, when he is on the job !). When the dog needs "to be out of the way", he literally goes to sleep - how is this 200% dynamo able to do this, when he realizes that he needs to settle ? When guarding the estate, he literally moves non-stop/ceaselessly (24/7), watching, investigating and sensing pretty much everything that is happening around the whole perimeter, upstairs, downstairs, the basement, the grounds.....misses absolutely nothing (my girl also misses nothing and is also a 200% girl, but she is a more noisy barker and a constant whiner). No barking or whining of any sort - signs of nervousness/expressions of discomfort or frustration to get out - when in the crate, even for an extended period. Is not scared of a damn thing that you can throw at him, and high aggression - and anger - levels when he engages.
I call that bedrock solid nerves, which I used to see in GSDs 20+ years back (I used to have showlines that were very good then), but lately am failing to see, especially in what I call as dogs "loaded in prey".....the sport-dogs being the worst from that perspective, with uncappable/out-of-control runaway drives, and the ones that should be totally out of the GSD gene-pool, IMHO.
As you can see, I am a big, big believer in needing strong nerves in the breeding animals - of course coupled with having the required amount of drives. Just having strong drives with the underlying nerves - that can absorb and express the drives as needed - missing (too many of those around, IMHO) is just like driving a high-strung car whose underlying suspension would fall apart at the first hair-pin bend - not terribly reliable or useful.
Could be, Jim. However, having a dog (the bi-color in my avatar) that is absolutely high-energy and operating at 200% in the field but is absolutely calm and settled in the house (no "bouncing off the walls" or needing any other thing to calm him down), I associate that with one with a foundation of solid nerves. A person who is unfamiliar with the dog and seeing him in the crate for the first time, might make the bad mistake of thinking that this literal volcano is a pretty dull guy......far, far from reality, since even from within the crate, those 2 eyes are boring holes right through the guest, weighing and analyzing ! The only time he would bark explosively from within his crate is when he hears something out-of-the-ordinary somewhere in the vicinity, and during those times, he is nearly always right to have alerted.
No signs of discomfort or jumpiness or destructiveness, even when spending over 14 hours in the crate (during a long drive etc) but the second he is on the job, he is at 200% (I doubt any "prey loaded, bouncing off the walls" dog can match his high energy levels, when he is on the job !). When the dog needs "to be out of the way", he literally goes to sleep - how is this 200% dynamo able to do this, when he realizes that he needs to settle ? When guarding the estate, he literally moves non-stop/ceaselessly (24/7), watching, investigating and sensing pretty much everything that is happening around the whole perimeter, upstairs, downstairs, the basement, the grounds.....misses absolutely nothing (my girl also misses nothing and is also a 200% girl, but she is a more noisy barker and a constant whiner). No barking or whining of any sort - signs of nervousness/expressions of discomfort or frustration to get out - when in the crate, even for an extended period. Is not scared of a damn thing that you can throw at him, and high aggression - and anger - levels when he engages.
I call that bedrock solid nerves, which I used to see in GSDs 20+ years back (I used to have showlines that were very good then), but lately am failing to see, especially in what I call as dogs "loaded in prey".....the sport-dogs being the worst from that perspective, with uncappable/out-of-control runaway drives, and the ones that should be totally out of the GSD gene-pool, IMHO.
As you can see, I am a big, big believer in needing strong nerves in the breeding animals - of course coupled with having the required amount of drives. Just having strong drives with the underlying nerves - that can absorb and express the drives as needed - missing (too many of those around, IMHO) is just like driving a high-strung car whose underlying suspension would fall apart at the first hair-pin bend - not terribly reliable or useful.
by Ibrahim on 29 December 2012 - 12:12
Joanro,
You said:
I call that bedrock solid nerves, which I used to see in GSDs 20+ years back (I used to have showlines that were very good then), but lately am failing to see, especially in what I call as dogs "loaded in prey".....the sport-dogs being the worst from that perspective, with uncappable/out-of-control runaway drives, and the ones that should be totally out of the GSD gene-pool, IMHO.
Will you plese explain and elaborate on this.
You said:
I call that bedrock solid nerves, which I used to see in GSDs 20+ years back (I used to have showlines that were very good then), but lately am failing to see, especially in what I call as dogs "loaded in prey".....the sport-dogs being the worst from that perspective, with uncappable/out-of-control runaway drives, and the ones that should be totally out of the GSD gene-pool, IMHO.
Will you plese explain and elaborate on this.
by Ibrahim on 29 December 2012 - 16:12
aaykay, that question was to you, I apologize for typing Joanro's name, aplology is also extended to Joanro.
by Slamdunc on 29 December 2012 - 18:12
aaykay,
I happen to own a "very high prey drive sport type" dog, he is one of those dog that will play fetch forever. He is relentless when he wants to play and seems to never tire and never get bored. Work him all day and he still wants to go. Bring him in the house and he is constantly bringing that toy to you and trying to initiate a game of fetch. Had I stuck with SchH with him he would be a National level SchH dog like his brother and other dogs from his breeder. Very high prey drive, actually "loaded in prey" as you may call it. I would match this dog's energy level and working ability to the "high energy dog' you describe any time. It may appear that a dog "loaded in prey" sport type dog that wants to go and work or play all the time might be an unappealing dog to you?
As I said earlier if you take away the toy the dog will settle down nicely, but may climb on a family member for a hug when you are sitting on the couch.
With out seeing your dog I can not say that it has "bedrock solid nerves," I can only take your word for that and he may very well be an exceptional dog. I can tell you that all of my "loaded in prey" sport dogs have had solid nerves and have been tested. I can tell you the dog I described above, while "loaded in prey" has enough drive and working ability for two or three good GSD's. I can also tell you the dog is clear headed, does not leak drive and even under stress will remain on task and focused. It is hard to break this dog's focus. I have heeled the dog through crowds at a seminar when I did SchH with his eyes glued on face with people pouring water on the dog's head and he will remain focused and ignore that. His attention will never divert when he is told to "watch me." When giving warnings at a door way before entering to search you an see the excitement in the dog. You can see the frustration build, the tension in the muscles as the dog is ready to spring to action and catapult himself into the building to search for the "bad guy." He must wait quietly and calmly as the warnings are repeated and contain himself. I do not allow whining or barking at the threshold for several reasons and I may be a good distance away form the dog and some one else giving the warnings. Here you see the self control, the drive containment and the desire to go and hunt. This is a genetically excellent working animal and when the breeder repeats a similar breeding I am first in line for another pup. This "loaded in prey" sport dog is also very balanced with high defense and a serious civil side. I can guarantee that this dog will engage a combative subject with out equipment for "real" and has done so many times, requiring an ER visit each time from a single, hard, full crushing grip. The dog engages a sleeve, suit or bare flesh with the same intensity and power. This dog is also a tracking machine and a fantastic Narcotics Detection dog. This "prey monster" is my police K-9, in the avatar and I raised him form a pup. Don't be so quick to judge the "high prey drive" sport dogs, some can be very excellent dogs. My start in working dogs was in SchH and I have a great deal of respect for those that get out there and work and title their dogs. Since I have decoyed for SchH dogs for some time I have had the pleasure of working some really nice, hard, high drive, serious dogs over the years. If some one's only experience with "sport" dogs is SL dogs training to get past a routine, well you need to see more high end SchH dogs. If the training is all prey based then there is a problem. If the dog is allowed to "leak" drive and not trained to contain their drive that is another problem.
I go back to my point that I made earlier and many others also made: Extreme prey with out defense is not desirable overall to me, just as over the top defense with out prey is undesirable. Balance is the key. Rarely will you ever get 50/50, but it must be in the range. With this balance comes good nerves and strong dogs. For those that like high defense and low prey check out those Caucasian mountain dogs.
I happen to own a "very high prey drive sport type" dog, he is one of those dog that will play fetch forever. He is relentless when he wants to play and seems to never tire and never get bored. Work him all day and he still wants to go. Bring him in the house and he is constantly bringing that toy to you and trying to initiate a game of fetch. Had I stuck with SchH with him he would be a National level SchH dog like his brother and other dogs from his breeder. Very high prey drive, actually "loaded in prey" as you may call it. I would match this dog's energy level and working ability to the "high energy dog' you describe any time. It may appear that a dog "loaded in prey" sport type dog that wants to go and work or play all the time might be an unappealing dog to you?
As I said earlier if you take away the toy the dog will settle down nicely, but may climb on a family member for a hug when you are sitting on the couch.
With out seeing your dog I can not say that it has "bedrock solid nerves," I can only take your word for that and he may very well be an exceptional dog. I can tell you that all of my "loaded in prey" sport dogs have had solid nerves and have been tested. I can tell you the dog I described above, while "loaded in prey" has enough drive and working ability for two or three good GSD's. I can also tell you the dog is clear headed, does not leak drive and even under stress will remain on task and focused. It is hard to break this dog's focus. I have heeled the dog through crowds at a seminar when I did SchH with his eyes glued on face with people pouring water on the dog's head and he will remain focused and ignore that. His attention will never divert when he is told to "watch me." When giving warnings at a door way before entering to search you an see the excitement in the dog. You can see the frustration build, the tension in the muscles as the dog is ready to spring to action and catapult himself into the building to search for the "bad guy." He must wait quietly and calmly as the warnings are repeated and contain himself. I do not allow whining or barking at the threshold for several reasons and I may be a good distance away form the dog and some one else giving the warnings. Here you see the self control, the drive containment and the desire to go and hunt. This is a genetically excellent working animal and when the breeder repeats a similar breeding I am first in line for another pup. This "loaded in prey" sport dog is also very balanced with high defense and a serious civil side. I can guarantee that this dog will engage a combative subject with out equipment for "real" and has done so many times, requiring an ER visit each time from a single, hard, full crushing grip. The dog engages a sleeve, suit or bare flesh with the same intensity and power. This dog is also a tracking machine and a fantastic Narcotics Detection dog. This "prey monster" is my police K-9, in the avatar and I raised him form a pup. Don't be so quick to judge the "high prey drive" sport dogs, some can be very excellent dogs. My start in working dogs was in SchH and I have a great deal of respect for those that get out there and work and title their dogs. Since I have decoyed for SchH dogs for some time I have had the pleasure of working some really nice, hard, high drive, serious dogs over the years. If some one's only experience with "sport" dogs is SL dogs training to get past a routine, well you need to see more high end SchH dogs. If the training is all prey based then there is a problem. If the dog is allowed to "leak" drive and not trained to contain their drive that is another problem.
I go back to my point that I made earlier and many others also made: Extreme prey with out defense is not desirable overall to me, just as over the top defense with out prey is undesirable. Balance is the key. Rarely will you ever get 50/50, but it must be in the range. With this balance comes good nerves and strong dogs. For those that like high defense and low prey check out those Caucasian mountain dogs.
by mfh27 on 29 December 2012 - 20:12
Slamdunc, , as usual
Maybe its just me, but I notice a group of people on working dog forums that spout an anti-sport/SchH/high prey message. I guess it's in an attempt to sell their brand of "real dog".
, as usualMaybe its just me, but I notice a group of people on working dog forums that spout an anti-sport/SchH/high prey message. I guess it's in an attempt to sell their brand of "real dog".
by BlackthornGSD on 29 December 2012 - 20:12
Aaykay - what are the bloodlines on the bicolor dog?
by BlackthornGSD on 29 December 2012 - 20:12
Maybe its just me, but I notice a group of people on working dog forums that spout an anti-sport/SchH/high prey message. I guess it's in an attempt to sell their brand of "real dog".
There are some dogs who are bred to be extremely high prey and high fight drive, and they cannot cap, they cannot shut up in an anticipatory situation. They scream when their owner pulls another dog out of a crate. They scream when they get out of the crate. They have trouble thinking in drive and almost anything will kick them into drive.
That is a type of dog who can do very well in schutzhund and that I think is a side product of breeding *for* schutzhund. These dogs might be useful dogs in many situations, can bite for real with little training--but it's still not the type of dog I want to see everywhere.
I don't see this as a problem with high prey--but a problem with "power transmission" -- the dog can't handle or use the drive he has. Some of this is related to nerves, but I think it's not *just* nerves. I think there's some other element--maybe related to thresholds--that allows a dog to cap well and release drive full force into action.
Christine
by Slamdunc on 29 December 2012 - 21:12
There are some dogs who are bred to be extremely high prey and high fight drive, and they cannot cap, they cannot shut up in an anticipatory situation. They scream when their owner pulls another dog out of a crate. They scream when they get out of the crate. They have trouble thinking in drive and almost anything will kick them into drive.
That is a type of dog who can do very well in schutzhund and that I think is a side product of breeding *for* schutzhund. These dogs might be useful dogs in many situations, can bite for real with little training--but it's still not the type of dog I want to see everywhere.
I don't see this as a problem with high prey--but a problem with "power transmission" -- the dog can't handle or use the drive he has. Some of this is related to nerves, but I think it's not *just* nerves. I think there's some other element--maybe related to thresholds--that allows a dog to cap well and release drive full force into action
Christine,
That is very true! It is also very interesting. I had a Yoschy granddaughter that was a screamer much as you describe. Take another dog out of a crate to work and that dog would go ballistic. Open the crate to let another dog out and this dog would nail them, or nail me putting her away. I have seen other dogs from similar lines act in a similar fashion. I was in a club that had several dogs from the Maineche kennel back in the 90's with similar traits. I am not knocking Yoschy or Maineche lines, as I like them very much just making an observation. My female would at times scream during obedience if she could view her toy under my armpit. Still very focused, very high in drive but found that as an outlet. Today, I would handle that dog differently and deal with that vocalization differently. It never affected her bite work and she always worked incredibly well and was a fantastic tracking dog. But she was wound and a bit of a pain in the ass at times. It was definitely not a nerve issue as this as she was a strong, confident dog with unshakeable nerves. Nothing phased that dog and the more pressure applied to her the stronger she got. But, she would scream as Christine described when another dog was taken out or during OB at times. But this was well before I had ever heard the term"capping" and was always happy with her performance. She would settle in the house well and was either content snuggling at home or working at high intensity. One or the other, she was completely happy either way.
When it comes to our working dogs we can not have a dog that "cannot shut up in an anticipatory situation." It presents to much conflict and interferes with some tasks that the dog needs to perform. During a building search the dog must be quite as I mentioned before during the warnings or during a covert clear. This often becomes a training issue and the table often helps with getting the dog to be quite. The handler has a big role in this and can either make it better or make it worse. A dog that has that issue must be handled by a calm, confident in control handler who doesn't get frustrated or agitated when it happens. Because it can be very annoying and frustrating.
That is a type of dog who can do very well in schutzhund and that I think is a side product of breeding *for* schutzhund. These dogs might be useful dogs in many situations, can bite for real with little training--but it's still not the type of dog I want to see everywhere.
I don't see this as a problem with high prey--but a problem with "power transmission" -- the dog can't handle or use the drive he has. Some of this is related to nerves, but I think it's not *just* nerves. I think there's some other element--maybe related to thresholds--that allows a dog to cap well and release drive full force into action
Christine,
That is very true! It is also very interesting. I had a Yoschy granddaughter that was a screamer much as you describe. Take another dog out of a crate to work and that dog would go ballistic. Open the crate to let another dog out and this dog would nail them, or nail me putting her away. I have seen other dogs from similar lines act in a similar fashion. I was in a club that had several dogs from the Maineche kennel back in the 90's with similar traits. I am not knocking Yoschy or Maineche lines, as I like them very much just making an observation. My female would at times scream during obedience if she could view her toy under my armpit. Still very focused, very high in drive but found that as an outlet. Today, I would handle that dog differently and deal with that vocalization differently. It never affected her bite work and she always worked incredibly well and was a fantastic tracking dog. But she was wound and a bit of a pain in the ass at times. It was definitely not a nerve issue as this as she was a strong, confident dog with unshakeable nerves. Nothing phased that dog and the more pressure applied to her the stronger she got. But, she would scream as Christine described when another dog was taken out or during OB at times. But this was well before I had ever heard the term"capping" and was always happy with her performance. She would settle in the house well and was either content snuggling at home or working at high intensity. One or the other, she was completely happy either way.
When it comes to our working dogs we can not have a dog that "cannot shut up in an anticipatory situation." It presents to much conflict and interferes with some tasks that the dog needs to perform. During a building search the dog must be quite as I mentioned before during the warnings or during a covert clear. This often becomes a training issue and the table often helps with getting the dog to be quite. The handler has a big role in this and can either make it better or make it worse. A dog that has that issue must be handled by a calm, confident in control handler who doesn't get frustrated or agitated when it happens. Because it can be very annoying and frustrating.
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