Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 14

duke1965; I didnt know that this was personal!!!!

What you do obviously works for you...unfortunately neither you or me are the majority...who insidently dont do anything at all with the dogs apart from BREED!!!

...and if I am not mistaken this was the idea of the thread.

 But lets just say that I buy two of your dogs...and keep them in my back yard...then do nothing with them apart from feed them,walk them, and take them to the vet when needed, then of course I breed them...and do the same with their off-spring and so on until one day I invite you to see what I have done!!!

I doubt you will see the dogs in my back yard to have any resemblence to your promo video...

Thats the point...IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE who breed without any care or though asside of the income...

If you raise the bar to COMPOLSARY BREED SURVEY...then maybe we will end up with more strength in our dogs on an INTERNATIONAL level...rather than pockets of diligant workers with the breed here and there.

It's about the versitility to handle various tasks. Balli Panta Rei. One top PPD from Jinopo also produced dogs used in Montana sheep ranch as a herding farm working dog, At the time of the owners death his daughter has produced offsprings from this dog Czar for police work, protection and has sent his blood to Canada for the RCMP breeding program, and has repeat buyers for various types of work. It is just not that many people I know that still use  them for herding. But it doesn't mean they can not. But like every thing else, evaluation and selection has to be done to find best temperment for the task. But does not mean all should not be capably trained to perform any  task. I've had to many dogs for to many years to think all are equal but it boils down to first of all evaluation and selection. I'm no rocket scientist but the best trainers I've ever seen can only get out of a dog is what the dog has to offer him. A made dog will always under enough pressure resort back to what he really is, alot like people
Hank

"If you raise the bar to COMPOLSARY BREED SURVEY...then maybe we will end up with more strength in our dogs on an INTERNATIONAL level...rather than pockets of diligant workers with the breed here and there."

An obvious added benefit to this type of strategy is an associated reduction in the number of unwanted dogs.

 the best trainers I've ever seen can only get out of a dog is what the dog has to offer him. A made dog will always under enough pressure resort back to what he really is, alot like people

totally agree desert.....

duke...no doubt schutzhund is patterned....what recognized dog sport isn't? Do dogs get trial wise...yes...a dog learns through repetition:-) Now with that said...I would imagine the handler knows his dogs weakness..(which ALL dogs have)...as do we humans:-)

Happy training!

apo  wrote

Thats the point...IRRESPONSIBLE PEOPLE who breed without any care or though asside of the income...
 

and that doesnot go for commercial breeders that buy titled stock and start to produce

duke1965; who do you include in this: "commercial breeders"??

 apo:

               I agree the bar needs raised or atleast returned to a test  that will strengthen the breed. The test will strengthen the breed if it,s a proper test, the survey will show uniformity to the standard. 2 things will stop you Germany and money. There in lies the rub for some to title a dog to just the current test isn,t testing far enought to strengthen it.

 Again titles are a good place to start, but how many train beyond the criteria of the titleing needs? 
 

Do I need a title to sell a car?

Quote: Of course you can get dummies bred from Sch 111 dogs and Dogs which are korclassed but you have a better chance than a Dog with Generations of nothing to its portfolio. 

According to whom ??

The problem with titles is that people that are not knowledgable do not know how BS they can be. I have seen judges get a better score than they deserved, I have seen dogs titled that while well trained, are not going to produce anything of any use, and of course, are bred.

Look at how different peoples ideas of drive are. I have seen many dogs described as high drive, and I have no idea what they are talking about. I have seen nervy described as "sharp", and so forth and so on.

THen you have your "research" wizards that produce this research proving beyond ALL DOUBT that what ever is true, but you look at the research and see many many flaws in it. Wether it is hips or titles or health or whatever bullshit someone is using to promote their dogs, the bottom line is if their idea of what a good dog is is flawed, then all of that doesn't matter.

There are a lot of breeders out there that look at an average dog, middle of the road dog, and think that he is the almighty. To counter this, you see the promotion non stop. The best way to do this is to trial the dog over and over and over, and promote that crap.


As far as Sch is a sport, not a job, that is crap. Even I, who hates the damn nightmare knows that it is a job. Part time, but lots of hard work goes into the top dogs.

I have seen the certification for the dogs who everyone thinks has "real" jobs, and it is not very impressive at all. The individual handler is what makes a dog with a "real" job good at it's job.

If the certification for these "real" jobs had the bar raised, what do you think the percentage would be of dogs that would fail miserably ? 

Quote: "If you raise the bar to COMPOLSARY BREED SURVEY...then maybe we will end up with more strength in our dogs on an INTERNATIONAL level...rather than pockets of diligant workers with the breed here and there."

You will see that bar lowered then as well. It is already fairly pathetic. Many use the right judge to get over on the system and there you have it. It is a compromised ideal to begin with.