The decline of the German Shepherd character - Page 13

I amnot sure how many dogs are dyed but the colour will not affect how the dogs are bred and that is what we should be looking at in the best interests of the breed.

Mackenzie

While we are on colour, there is of course no guarantee that a dog

you import from Germany / Europe / anywhere else at an immature

age will not 'pale out' over the course of its adult life, whether it was

embellished for the sale or not.

Once again - colour is not the main issue. We should be talking about what breeders should consider doing to take the breed forward and bring back what is needed. Perhaps there is not the experience out there to discuss that, I don't know.

Mackenzie

Since there seems to be so many breeding for different "types/styles" of GSD's, I think it may be hard to agree on correct character or to define it. I asked about breeders' criteria when selecting breeding stock and how it worked out for them, but there was little response from anyone other than Mac and Student. Color is probably only a factor to those breeding for competitive show dogs; nothing to do with character as far as I know, but still a consideration when importing a dog for showing and breeding. Off topic, sorry. I offered an example of a friend's successful breeding program (not mine, I don't breed dogs anymore) hoping it would generate some comments but it was of no interest, so I'm at a loss as to what will generate interest in this discussion. 

Still a very interesting thread, thanks Mac.

Thanks Blitzen.

Colour is only one consideration when thinking of breeding.  The most important consideration for me is Character and if the dog does not come up to scratch then I need have no further interest and save time and money.  That principle applies whether the dog is for show or work.  No compromise.

Mackenzie

Yes the colour of the dog is only relevant in so far as it is something that

just  Show breeders consider much - although judging by some comments I've seen made, one might be excused for thinking the lack of popularity of greys accounts for much of the deterioration in working ability / trainability / discrimination / 'hardness' in the breed today ...another point Herr Martin gets

'all' the blame for;  yada-yada-yada.  [IMO, complete nonsense. Grey dogs found less favour from the get-go with all 'interests' in the breed from an early stage,  it's only in latter years that people, particularly Work / Sport people, have swung in favour,  and I say that as a long-term great fan of sables myself.]

The bit about no guarantees on importing I felt necessary to interject because it looked like this thred was taking a swing towards saying that all dogs with

apparently good pigment will consistently stay that way ...

Not everything posted on PDB is very sensible for newbs to hear ...

Hundmutter - it was Hermann Martin who said we have no grey dogs in Germany.  He was opposed in this by Alfred Hahn who, at the time, was on the breeding Committee in the SV.  The result was Herr Hahn, a very experienced and successful breeder of long standing was swiftly moved off of the breeding committee.   Others of the same ilk as Herr Hahn wre also moved over.  Hermann Martin also disregarded bi-colours and blacks.

It is also no coincidence that for many years grey dogs have been dominant in working disciplines which should tell you something.

Speaking of the time when I first came into the Breed in 1970 sable dogs were not very popular in the UK which is a long way before Hermann Martin.  The last UK Champion who was a grey dog was as far as my memory serves me is Xanthos of Colgay.

Mackenzie

Agreed Mac what you say is true of the UK dogs - people like Dorothy Beach

hardly helped by 'refusing' to judge sables !   But it is also true that the kennels

in many ways closest to Germany in the 50s and 60s had produced [and occasionally campaigned] sables (eg Vikkas/Tanfield;Brittas).  And it is still true that in Germany following the washed out greys from Kriminalpoleizei etc they had definitely already taken a downturn in popularity / numbers bred for Showing, if perhaps not herding or armed service.  Well pre-  the 80s and the Martin bros.  Although I guess  that this dearth enabled Herman to be convinced of his statement !  I think you will find this verified by the SV StudBook of that era.

BTW you started into another area of discussion a couple of posts ago, when you spoke of crossing Show and Working dogs in your breeding programme.   I would support that !  - but urge you to delve into historic posts on PDB where this topic has also been hashed and rehashed many times, again with the

extreme polarisation.  Its also worth taking into consideration that until

comparatively recently the lines used for Work and those used for Show

in the UK  were much less thoroughly demarcated than the equivalent in

America.

Hundmutter - when I mentioned crossing working and show lines I was saying what I would do.  The comment was made as an example of increasing the gene pool in my breeding programme.  The breed as a whole needs to expand the gene pool worldwide.

Your comment regarding the falling popularity of the grey dogs pre Hermann Martin did not exclude them from either work or show.  Hermann Martin decided that the colour grey would never be considered, along with bi-colours and blacks. In sweeping these colours aside he opened the door for following presidents to sweep aside on a whim anything that did not fit with him.  It is not for one President alone to decide on these sort of matters.

Mackenzie

^ how exactly do you expand the gene pool of a closed book, makes no frikkin sense, everything outside of line breeding reduces the gene-pool. please german shepherd breeders, do not breed anything until you have consulted someone qaulified???

"The breed as a whole needs to expand the gene pool worldwide.