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by Smiley on 21 March 2014 - 18:03
Molly....aloof to strangers but tolerant in crowds and safe in all situations especially with kids and ok being petted
Hired Dog...thank you. Yeah, in my ideal dream world...I would keep my bitch's temperament. I mean we just started working IPO in October with a break for a bit due to weather and she loves it. So far, she has full bites on sleeve; engages helper; has handled verbal, stick, and whip pressure both with me holding line and her tied; and always outs. But, she "flips a switch". Off the field, she is a dog that people can pet and is sweet.
However, we haven't gotten to blinds or anything yet so who knows.
But, I just got confused because I guess I want a great working dog but one like my bitch where I can do AKC stuff with; hook her up to a sled for my son to pull him; watch as she gives my son free swim rides in lake by grabbing her collar; and can trust her with strange kids over and running around like maniacs. At training, if I walk by other cars they become cujo like they want to kill me. If you walk by my car she just quitely watches. Doesnt bark or get happy. Just quietely watches. I don't know what that means overall in terms of working temperament if anything........
I didn't know if people's definition of a working dog meant a civil dog(I think I understand that to mean a dog that hates people and will bite them without hesitation) or a dog that is super hard to live with and not safe. I don't want a dog that I always have to worry about. That can't be true german shepherd breed type, right?
I mean...can't a good working german shepherd be good natured?
Hired Dog...thank you. Yeah, in my ideal dream world...I would keep my bitch's temperament. I mean we just started working IPO in October with a break for a bit due to weather and she loves it. So far, she has full bites on sleeve; engages helper; has handled verbal, stick, and whip pressure both with me holding line and her tied; and always outs. But, she "flips a switch". Off the field, she is a dog that people can pet and is sweet.
However, we haven't gotten to blinds or anything yet so who knows.
But, I just got confused because I guess I want a great working dog but one like my bitch where I can do AKC stuff with; hook her up to a sled for my son to pull him; watch as she gives my son free swim rides in lake by grabbing her collar; and can trust her with strange kids over and running around like maniacs. At training, if I walk by other cars they become cujo like they want to kill me. If you walk by my car she just quitely watches. Doesnt bark or get happy. Just quietely watches. I don't know what that means overall in terms of working temperament if anything........
I didn't know if people's definition of a working dog meant a civil dog(I think I understand that to mean a dog that hates people and will bite them without hesitation) or a dog that is super hard to live with and not safe. I don't want a dog that I always have to worry about. That can't be true german shepherd breed type, right?
I mean...can't a good working german shepherd be good natured?

by Sunsilver on 21 March 2014 - 18:03
Smiley, it's called 'discernment', the ability to know when something isn't right, or a person means harm, and the intelligence to know what to do about it.
I have heard tons of stories about GSDs who were great with the family's kids, but instantly knew if a stranger meant harm. Collies have this, too, the good ones. I think it's part of the herding instinct, to guard and protect what belongs to their master or family.
A few quick stories:
A lady had a shepherd who was good with everyone except for one next door neighbour. The dog would never let him touch her, and would growl if he tried. A number of years after the owner moved away from that town, she read in the paper he'd been arrested for child molestation.
A family heard a commotion one night, and looked out the window to find their dog had his teeth sunk into the leg of a man who had been trying to climb in the window of the neighbour's house. (The neighbours were on vacation.) He held the man at bay until police arrived.
When I was a kid, I read a book called First Lady of the Seeing Eye: http://www.amazon.com/First-Lady-Seeing-Morris-Frank/dp/B001ODPQMY It's been many years since I read it but two things stick in my mind which I af fairly sure were in this book. Someone asked the Seeing Eye instructor why the GSD was the best dog for guide work. The instructor replied, "If a German shepherd came up to the edge of an excavation, and its handler ordered it forward, it would refuse to go, and actually block the handler from going any further. A standard poodle, though it has the size to be a guide dog, would probably jump down into the excavation, and take its handler with it!" Now, THAT'S discernment!
One of the first people to have a Seeing Eye dog eventually was able to recover his vision due to a new type of surgery. However, he had difficulty interpreting what he saw, as he had been blind for so long, and his vision was still less than perfect. One day, he was crossing the street, and an empty float truck was blocking the intersection, He could not figure out what it was, or how to get around it. His Seeing Eye dog was with him, but no longer in harness. The dog realized its master needed help, and, grabbing the leash in its teeth led him around the truck!
The breed's founder, Max von Stephanitz never intended the German shepherd to be shut away in a kennel when it was not being trained or used for work. It was meant to be part of the family: "The confinement of a dog should be the exception, freedom the rule."
I have heard tons of stories about GSDs who were great with the family's kids, but instantly knew if a stranger meant harm. Collies have this, too, the good ones. I think it's part of the herding instinct, to guard and protect what belongs to their master or family.
A few quick stories:
A lady had a shepherd who was good with everyone except for one next door neighbour. The dog would never let him touch her, and would growl if he tried. A number of years after the owner moved away from that town, she read in the paper he'd been arrested for child molestation.
A family heard a commotion one night, and looked out the window to find their dog had his teeth sunk into the leg of a man who had been trying to climb in the window of the neighbour's house. (The neighbours were on vacation.) He held the man at bay until police arrived.
When I was a kid, I read a book called First Lady of the Seeing Eye: http://www.amazon.com/First-Lady-Seeing-Morris-Frank/dp/B001ODPQMY It's been many years since I read it but two things stick in my mind which I af fairly sure were in this book. Someone asked the Seeing Eye instructor why the GSD was the best dog for guide work. The instructor replied, "If a German shepherd came up to the edge of an excavation, and its handler ordered it forward, it would refuse to go, and actually block the handler from going any further. A standard poodle, though it has the size to be a guide dog, would probably jump down into the excavation, and take its handler with it!" Now, THAT'S discernment!
One of the first people to have a Seeing Eye dog eventually was able to recover his vision due to a new type of surgery. However, he had difficulty interpreting what he saw, as he had been blind for so long, and his vision was still less than perfect. One day, he was crossing the street, and an empty float truck was blocking the intersection, He could not figure out what it was, or how to get around it. His Seeing Eye dog was with him, but no longer in harness. The dog realized its master needed help, and, grabbing the leash in its teeth led him around the truck!
The breed's founder, Max von Stephanitz never intended the German shepherd to be shut away in a kennel when it was not being trained or used for work. It was meant to be part of the family: "The confinement of a dog should be the exception, freedom the rule."

by mollyandjack on 21 March 2014 - 18:03
Smiley, I'm going to PM you some stuff :)

by Hired Dog on 21 March 2014 - 18:03
Sarah, I want and have a dog that socially NEUTRAL, it does not seek nor want attention from anyone other then me. Having said that, because of the nature of my job, I MUST be able to walk my dog into a crowd of several thousand people at times.
The dog has to be sound enough and stable enough to focus on me and leave everyone else alone, even though I am sure he sometimes has other thoughts...
My dog MUST be able to engage anyone I say, when I say it without thinking about it and that makes things a little long and complicated to explain in detail here, but, a working dog has to remain a working dog, not relegated to pet status, as in its everyones buddy and such.
As far as sport dogs, this is a sore subject in here, me, personally, I would not trust 95% of them to bite in the real world, but, my friend Zdog who seems to have a device of some sort to "catch" these sport dog talks, will be in here soon to add something to this.
The dog has to be sound enough and stable enough to focus on me and leave everyone else alone, even though I am sure he sometimes has other thoughts...
My dog MUST be able to engage anyone I say, when I say it without thinking about it and that makes things a little long and complicated to explain in detail here, but, a working dog has to remain a working dog, not relegated to pet status, as in its everyones buddy and such.
As far as sport dogs, this is a sore subject in here, me, personally, I would not trust 95% of them to bite in the real world, but, my friend Zdog who seems to have a device of some sort to "catch" these sport dog talks, will be in here soon to add something to this.

by joanro on 21 March 2014 - 18:03
Smiley, "a dog that hates people and will bite without hesitation" (without provocation unless on command) is an unsound dog. That is not what a working dog should be and it is not what civil dog means.
A civil dog is a dog who will bite the person without equipment, but not just biting for the heck of it. There should be a good reason to bite, as in protecting itself or handler or on command.
A working dog doesn't mean the dog "hates people". A working dog should be able to perform its job in any situation reliably. They don't need to be lovey dovey like a golden to be safe in a crowd.

by mollyandjack on 21 March 2014 - 18:03
HiredDog, 

by gsdstudent on 21 March 2014 - 19:03
Eric Renner is the man I beleive owned Bodo. I think he was an AKC judge for the GSD and had ties to the "Seeing Eye''
by gsdstudent on 21 March 2014 - 19:03
it is desired to have a phenotype/genotype be the same and correct for the standard. Unfortuneately the standard is not reflected close enough in conformation events.

by vonissk on 21 March 2014 - 19:03
Hey Joan good to "see" you girl.
Yes the frozen semen dog had offspring and on from there. BUT the reason I say only about 10 peo-ple have this blood--I am talking about from the source. I am not talking about generations ago--I am talking from the source. I am talking about going back into good old blood. And as far as the male I am going to use and keeping hidden--no he doesn't have that fantastic (?) sidegait and this and that. But he is UKC/Int'l CH/AKC CH pointed, he is CHIC certified, he has rally titles, a CD and is working on his CDX. I believe his breeder/owner/handler is going to get a BH on him also. This is JMO, but I believe this old blood is best for my program and possibly the breed.......I don't like a lot of extremes regardless of what lines it came from. And I do feel too many people are focusing on those extremes. As I've said many times, I believe in the Golden Middle and that's my focus. Dogs that can show and work. Sure I might not make it far in the AKC ring with a dog with lots of working lines, but nothing beats a failure but a try. I think a well rounded dog should have titles at both ends. Again JMO. And I am not necessarily talking about OB titles--I think a nice ScH or IPO looks nice at the end. And we all have our opinions and thoughts and I am sticking with mine.
Sun thanks for posting that poster of Bodo. I read it and they were people after my own heart. Also thank you for the deal on Valientdale. I knew when I first talked to her that something wasn't quite together. Also this ties into dogs being aggressive with no provocation. One of her great dogs was named Icon and he had a ScH 1. (if it wasn't Icon it was something with an I and this was in the very early 80's) When I talked to her on the phone she had some clients there and in the background I could hear him growling at these people and she kept having to tell him to shutup and leave those people alone. Doesn't sound too good does it? Nope I got off that thought quick.
Yes the frozen semen dog had offspring and on from there. BUT the reason I say only about 10 peo-ple have this blood--I am talking about from the source. I am not talking about generations ago--I am talking from the source. I am talking about going back into good old blood. And as far as the male I am going to use and keeping hidden--no he doesn't have that fantastic (?) sidegait and this and that. But he is UKC/Int'l CH/AKC CH pointed, he is CHIC certified, he has rally titles, a CD and is working on his CDX. I believe his breeder/owner/handler is going to get a BH on him also. This is JMO, but I believe this old blood is best for my program and possibly the breed.......I don't like a lot of extremes regardless of what lines it came from. And I do feel too many people are focusing on those extremes. As I've said many times, I believe in the Golden Middle and that's my focus. Dogs that can show and work. Sure I might not make it far in the AKC ring with a dog with lots of working lines, but nothing beats a failure but a try. I think a well rounded dog should have titles at both ends. Again JMO. And I am not necessarily talking about OB titles--I think a nice ScH or IPO looks nice at the end. And we all have our opinions and thoughts and I am sticking with mine.
Sun thanks for posting that poster of Bodo. I read it and they were people after my own heart. Also thank you for the deal on Valientdale. I knew when I first talked to her that something wasn't quite together. Also this ties into dogs being aggressive with no provocation. One of her great dogs was named Icon and he had a ScH 1. (if it wasn't Icon it was something with an I and this was in the very early 80's) When I talked to her on the phone she had some clients there and in the background I could hear him growling at these people and she kept having to tell him to shutup and leave those people alone. Doesn't sound too good does it? Nope I got off that thought quick.

by vonissk on 21 March 2014 - 19:03
Also I wanted to say this. We imported a bitch from Slovalkia with old Czech blood. (she was a Grim gr daughter)--IPO, ScH and I believe an SV1--I think that is the way you do that title. KKl 1 and rated SG. I pulled her out of the crate at D/FW--even tho she didn't know English and I knew no Czech, she let me hook the lead on her and walked out as if she had known me all her life. If I had a dog it took 2+ weeks to put my hands on I would be highly dissapointed.
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