Is Electric collar necessary to train precision? - Page 13

Very PC answer Jim; subtly insinuating that I train dogs with fear and you do not. I commend you for the effort for this amusing attempt . But it is without much reality or merit.  First of  when we talk about packing and family instinct of dogs ( or wolfs), we are not talking just  about theory, as you state,  but also about well scientifically established reality.   On top of it  wolfs and dogs are of the same species. Dogs have lost some wolf's instincts depending on the breed.  Nevertheless dogs are 100% governed by their family and packing instincts  in their interactions amongst themselves and they respond to our training attempts ONLY because of these instincts.   If you like it or not these  instincts are used in training by all trainers of dogs  even so they are not dogs or wolves themselves. It would be silly to deny such truth. 
 On top of it your last post ( I do not want submissive dogs, scared dogs or dogs that work out of fear. ) is in total   contradiction to your former post which is on top of this page for everyone to see.
 I do not want to be accused  of taking sentences out of context , thus I urge anybody with that concern to go ahead and read Slamdunc's  post in it's entirety on top of this page. 
Anybody reading it will find these your statements which are copied below,. These statements  clearly indicate in your own words, that you are doing what you are then later saying you are not doing.  Using dog's instinct for your training employing your dominance over the dog. Thus with all due respect  your statements are not just PC but also hypocritical. 
 All your statements below indicate SUBMISSIVENESS, TO YOUR DOMINANCE and yes response based on avoidance of negative which is induced by certain level of fear. And there is nothing wrong with that or any  statements below. 
 
 enforcing that command - Dominance
 I must make the dog perform the behavior immediately- Dominance
 I will go and physically get the dog and there will be a stern admonishment. Dominance and fear are used  
 there will be one recall command and I'm sure several assorted negative markers which I do not need to post here.   Dominance , anger , fear
I will spend more time on the recall and the ante will be raised, the praise, reward and correction will also be raised. Correction = avoidance of physical correction which is  based on fear of pain or discomfort
The dog is rarely given the opportunity to ignore a command and given commands that he will obey. Because the respect of you and your leadership position. Also if you do not give him opportunity to ignore command then how do you prove him if the opportunity arrive  in real life? 
When the dog ignores commands that he clearly understands he is punished, swiftly and firmly. Physical dominance  inducing fear.
... now I can immediately enforce then reward. Why ? Because of your superior  position in relationship between you and the dog. 

Again I will state that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the stements above but then you go and denounce them. 
In the last post where  you said  and I repeat:
 I do not want submissive dogs, scared dogs or dogs that work out of fear. 
  Here let me clarify for readers this: Submission - Dominance of the dogs in training or in pack of its own or in family of it's own  is not necessarily governed by fear ( as Jim seems to  believes)  but by respect of the leader, stemming from social superiority which is enforced by positive and negative approach. Where negative, which is in question here,  is mainly stemming out of  dominant member of the pack superior mental   and subsequently social  ability and possibly but not necessarily from physical strength which may cause pain or discomfort which the dog  tries to avoid.   Both positive and negative is necessary for leadreship and dominance of the trainer which is leader. 
 
Prager Hans

Hans,
That was a very detailed response. I suppose the thread should be moved as it has gone very far off your original topic.

I suppose a thread on positive training, the proper use of markers both negative and positive, and the role and the correct application of corrections and compulsion would be in order. The role of praise, reward and timing would naturally need to be explained. The affect of praise after a correction and the appropriate levels of both should be discussed.

I hope you get some informative responses and a good discussion from members of the forum. Perhaps it is a topic best reserved for your forum where you have a very eager audience.

There are some members that enjoy the information exchange and some that enjoy the arguing. I am going to avoid both here for a while. I will anxiously wait with the hope that some beneficial information is passed on.

The last thing that I will say is one can achieve respect with out fear. One can achieve reliability, obedience, joy in work with out excessive compulsion. One can have a dog perform in drive with out excessive submission. A dog can enjoy training, working and have a precise performance with a clear understanding of rewards and consequences. The dog can be given a choice and it will typically pick pleasure over discomfort. A correction does not need to cause submissive behavior and a resilent well trained dog will bounce back or never even come out of drive. This is what I was trying to convey. I'm finished now.

Best regards.

I agree with the statement Jim said "I do not want submissive dogs, scared dogs or dogs that work out of fear. "

There is a BIG difference between a dog responding out of fear and one responding to a correction for disobedience.  The difference can be seen in video and also in person when seeing the dog working in OB, Tracking or protection or even detection work. I want to see a dog that is working for his handler and overall it is a "happy picture". I dont not like to see the dogs working out of fear as that is not what training is about or should be.

Getting back to E collars, I have used them in the past. I do not need one with my female Xena. I have only used an fursaver on the dead ring with her.  She is very happy in her OB and responds well to verbal correction. For my new boy. Koal, so far I have just used fursaver and pinch collar on him.
There is a time and place for every tool. E collars are great tools when used properly. If they are used correctly the dog will not be working out of sudmission or fear and will not be scared. The dog must know what they were getting corrected for, so the timing must be perfect as with any training collar too.

I have found the thread very interesting, and I would like to thank those that responded to my question without 'slamming' me for my lack of knowledge on ecollars, but answering me in an informative and positive way (Slamdunc, Ramgsd, Hired Dog, Joanro).

Summing up I got from this was that there are the occasional people who will train with this at the forefront as the be all and end all of training methods, those who will pretty much always use it for finessing in high level competition to be able to 'stay in the game' and those that will use it as a tool if the character of the dog that they are handling dictates it, as, when and if needed.  Also circumstance, as in the herding situation Joanro described.

I will never be competing in the arenas under discussion here, so I rather liked the way that Chrissie T put her idea of ideal training as 'timing and and understanding of the other half of the team'.  That encapsulates what I was saying earlier, but it was good to learn some great training tips and remember some we've probably all forgotten along the way too.  I would never say never, for who knows what tomorrow may bring....but I hope to just work with my partner and future partners as I do now.

Interesting thread.

Training with an ecollar is like training with a leash in that there are correct ways of doing it and incorrect ways of doing it.

People assume that it can only be used to correct or punish, but that's not true.  It can be used to punish or correct, but that's not the only way to use.

Jeffs the thread is about training methods not using e collar and not about using it. 

Jyl said : There is a BIG difference between a dog responding out of fear and one responding to a correction for disobedience. 
Q: So if you correct the dog out of disobedience what is the dog responding to?  

Training where we use correction for disobedience is also called avoidance training.  So what is the dog avoiding? Correction . Right? Why do we ( or dog) avoid anything? Because we do not want it to happen again. Right? Why. Because we like it? No because we do not like it. Why we do not like it ? Well in nature things we or dogs do not like  would probably cause us not to survive. Thus it is about about survival. 
Dog responds for 2 reasons :
1. they want something, in  case of us while we are training them,  from us and we give it to them if they do what we ask them. ( Positive part of the training) ( + =>adding)
2. they want to avoid something. There  are many things which dog want to avoid. ( -=> subtracting)  One of them is what Jim said.When the dog ignores commands that he clearly understands he is punished, swiftly and firmly.
 Why would he/we/I do that? Because the dog fears such punishment and want s to avoid it.!!!!
Nowhere have I  or Jim  or any non-idiot  ever suggested  that  negative should be the only motivation for all training . But to avoid negative  part ,... yes I say it FEAR from dogs life is stupid and dangerous to the dog and his owner and to people and other animals  and objects around. 
Thus to say improperly  I do not want my dogs work out of fear  could be remedied easily  by saying I do not want dog work JUST  out of fear. But that would not fit into Jims's agenda where is is implying that I train dogs just out of fear  and he does not. . Same the Jyl's sentence There is a BIG difference between a dog responding out of fear and one responding to a correction for disobedience.  
Should be formulated this way:There is a BIG difference between a dog responding  ONLY out of fear and one responding to a correction for disobedience. 
This  all is silly. PC  people are afraid to use word "fear" in order not to stir controversy about themselves or their training methods even so they all use fear intentionally or unintentionally . While others are implying that their method is better because they are  not training  dogs using fear  meaning JUST  fear while others do.
     Fear is good . Without fear you will not survive 24 hr.  But to live only in fear is not good and training dogs to be motivated just by fear is also not good . Only an idiot would disagree with that.  I hope that this makes it clear.
Prager Hans

Jim are we dissecting word submission now? 
Is a response based on avoidance of negative correction or punishment , submission?  Submission to your wishes?  I would say yes. Isn't that what I have said in the first palace? 
Full circle. 

And please do me a favor and do not try to  disinvite me from here. I guess this is all what it is about isn't it?
 FYI: I will post where ever I want. 
Prager Hans

And please do me a favor and do not try to  disinvite me from here. I guess this is all what it is about isn't it?
 FYI: I will post where ever I want.

I have no idea what your are talking about?  I wasn't "disinviting" you!  As that is clearly not my place, just making a suggestion where you might get a better response and more interest.  You started the thread, I am finished commenting. I have noticed that when you get differing opinions or resistance to your point of view you post a similar thread on your forum.  You seem to get responses there that are more in line with your methods, opinions or point of view.   I recommended starting another thread on here as well.   I am probably not going to participate but that certainly doesn't stop you.  

I would think that starting a thread as provocative as this you would expect people to respond.  We agree on some things and disagree on others.  Doesn't mean I'm right and your wrong or your right and I'm wrong, we can disagree.   I can also decide to agree to disagree and let it go at that.  This thread brought about a lot of good questions and some interesting comments.  I was serious in starting another thread to discuss some of the issues raised.  A thread discussing the theory behind certain training methods and the need for praise, reward and compulsion should be addressed.  I'm sure many people would benefit.  I have no desire to start that thread here, perhaps you do?

Again best regards,

Jim