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by Ibrahim on 28 December 2012 - 17:12
No no no, you are a diamond and a precious one, I maybe a dog illiterate, but when it comes to diamonds I know what they look like 
by aaykay on 28 December 2012 - 17:12
BTW, Great posts, Slamdunc and Prager. Appreciate your valuable insights a lot ! 
by Slamdunc on 28 December 2012 - 17:12
Naturally, "nerve strength" or a solid temperament and sound nerves are critical. There are many reasons a dog can "leak" drive when working. Strong temperament, good nerves, confidence, hardness are all things that must be considered when choosing a dog or working / training a dog. Just because a dog is "high strung or bounces off the walls" is not necessarily a sign of poor nerves. I can show you dogs that are 5 - 6 years old and will not settle down in the house after working all day if a toy is present. Remove the toy and the dog settles very nicely. These are high dirve.strong dogs that are on the go when there is something to do. I do not view that as a nerve issue. Some dogs need to be taught "capping" and the proper outlet for their drives. To me this can often be a training issue or it can be the dog. It depends on the dog and the situation.
by Prager on 28 December 2012 - 18:12
I have no problem with Jim's statement what so ever. I would like to ad what one nugget hunter told me when I asked him where he looks for nuggets. Gold is where you find it. Thus if the dog comes from Czech , China or Germany does not concern me. What concern's me is what these dogs are. If they are good then that is good. That said I would say that SchH is the best game in town as far as maintaining GSD as a working dog EVEN SO I believe that work is more then just sport. I think SchH promotes prey in training and in genetics and neglects natural protectiveness and other attributes which GSD dog needs in order to be working dog. I will stress that I do not think that there is anything wrong with prey or defense. They are two sides of the same coin.
by Prager on 28 December 2012 - 18:12
That said I have a question for you (not for Slamdunc)
Can you confirm that all drives of a dog do not constitute a closed circuit? I explain what I mean;
Prey + defense + other drives ........... = A fixed amount
The bigger proportion of one drive results in a lesser proportion of other drives, also the bigger the absolute value is of one drive results in lesser absolute value/values of other drives.
Can you confirm the above is incorrect?
There is relative ratio and absolute amounts ( units of) of each drive. One does not necessarily influences the other but they could be put into relative ratio . In the same time they have absolute amounts of it one independent of another. That is what I believe.
You can not say just because the dog has high prey he can not have defense.
Am I answering you?
Can you confirm that all drives of a dog do not constitute a closed circuit? I explain what I mean;
Prey + defense + other drives ........... = A fixed amount
The bigger proportion of one drive results in a lesser proportion of other drives, also the bigger the absolute value is of one drive results in lesser absolute value/values of other drives.
Can you confirm the above is incorrect?
There is relative ratio and absolute amounts ( units of) of each drive. One does not necessarily influences the other but they could be put into relative ratio . In the same time they have absolute amounts of it one independent of another. That is what I believe.
You can not say just because the dog has high prey he can not have defense.
Am I answering you?
by Ibrahim on 28 December 2012 - 18:12
Yes and I understood
by Slamdunc on 28 December 2012 - 18:12
There is relative ratio and absolute amounts ( units of) of each drive. One does not necessarily influences the other but they could be put into relative ratio . In the same time they have absolute amounts of it one independent of another. That is what I believe.
You can not say just because the dog has high prey he can not have defense
Exactly! When trying to rate or describe a dog's temperament, drives, character, working ability, etc we have to develop a scale or rating system. Each trainer / handler will have their own system, scale or even terminology often describing the same traits and drives albeit slightly differently. Some may use a "drive triangle" or a chart with percentages or a numbering system. It is all the same equation in the end. As Hans mentioned earlier we have different numbers which when translated mean the same thing. I grade on a scale of 1 to 10, Hans may use percentages 0 - 100. It all works out to the same precise measuring system for our individual needs. If we both looked at the same dog, we may read the traits or drives in a similar fashion but assign somewhat different values to those traits / drives based on our own needs and what we each perceive as desirable. Hans may like a certain trait more than I do and vice versa. It doesn't make one better, or one right and the other wrong, just different tastes and needs. Naturally, the dog I pick would be the better dog!
You can not say just because the dog has high prey he can not have defense
Exactly! When trying to rate or describe a dog's temperament, drives, character, working ability, etc we have to develop a scale or rating system. Each trainer / handler will have their own system, scale or even terminology often describing the same traits and drives albeit slightly differently. Some may use a "drive triangle" or a chart with percentages or a numbering system. It is all the same equation in the end. As Hans mentioned earlier we have different numbers which when translated mean the same thing. I grade on a scale of 1 to 10, Hans may use percentages 0 - 100. It all works out to the same precise measuring system for our individual needs. If we both looked at the same dog, we may read the traits or drives in a similar fashion but assign somewhat different values to those traits / drives based on our own needs and what we each perceive as desirable. Hans may like a certain trait more than I do and vice versa. It doesn't make one better, or one right and the other wrong, just different tastes and needs. Naturally, the dog I pick would be the better dog!
by Ibrahim on 28 December 2012 - 18:12
Lol, thanks Jim
by sable59 on 28 December 2012 - 19:12
i haven't made any posts for awhile. i have really enjoyed the posts. hans and jim, thanks for such a gentlemans discussion. wade
by Gustav on 28 December 2012 - 20:12
You both have been saying pretty much the same thing from the beginning, that's why I haven't chimed in because you are both onpoint. You are just looking at things from different directions. I have two young males right now that fit both of your preferences. One a little more prey drive, the other more 50-50. Both would be successful in sport or police. One could be top sport dog and very good police, the other top police dog and good sport dog. Many people don't realize there are many subliminal aspects to drive, temperament, and hardness that need to work fluidly in transition to make good working or sport dog. When one aspect of drive, temperament or hardness is so extreme that its difficult for the dog to transition to other aspects....then we have problems.jmo
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