Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 13

Good Gawd.........I don't think anyone here has said schutzhund is "USELESS" just that it does not FULLY test for those characteristics that make a good working dog.  It is still the foundation stock for what I want but I will be evaluating an older puppy for my next dog and will take it on its own merits and will not exclude dogs without sport training if it comes from a breeder known for repeadedly placing police dogs.

Maybe the puppy that has to be "conditioned" to gunfire really is turned into a dog with great nerve...not sure but I don't think so......

Where the hell is the test for scentwork........tracking is an obedience excercise in schutzhund.

Why do people who evaluate dogs for honest work do OTHER tests such as retrieve and possessiveness on untrained Green Stock and subject them to conditions not encountered on the sport field.

Where are the open metal stairs, slippery white floors, unstable surfaces, flashing lights, smoke, fire, unpredictability in general -- thies are the things a working dog faces. (well the slippery white floors thing sounds mild but it messes with their visual perception)

Why not screen the dog for such things before it is even allowed to train in the sport** if you are truly concerned about the GSD being a true working dog?  Surely the dogs who excel at sport are THE top SPORT dogs.

**or let it train under some pet designation but not achieve the same high levels.

other than YOU evaluating your own dogs...testing your own dogs...where in the world is there an organization that fully test for those things??? I think you're being a tad idealistic....while it would be nice to have that type of evaluation available...it ain't happening unless you do it yourself.

Correct again Judron, If the Owner of Dogs does nothing or little to find out how there dogs can work then they cannot say anything about the way the Sports Guys work,
My gripe is the People who down the Sport and breed surveying as insignificant then do nothing with there own Dogs but breed from them boasting the Pups have gone to be trained for various jobs, However they have done nothing to evaluate there own stock in a lot of cases just to breed and sell on the Pups. So is it any wonder the Pounds are full of German shepherd Dogs.
And good People please tell me WHY you feel compelled to breed from your dogs anyway
The real and only reason is perhaps that you want a son or daughter from your favourite dog, But this is not the case mostly it is a way of making money that is the real reason
Now you take our Big Bob on here and his lovely wife Lillian, They are breeding a litter of Pups at this time from there Axel,
Every Pup has been given away FREE, GRATIS to be tested out work wise and  a few Bob is training on himself to evaluate them
NOW' That is the Mark of a good Caring Genuine Breeder who is doing something to better the breed, He and his wife knows that every Puppy will go to a working home and will know how it gets on.
They could have sold them because the Pups are impeccably bred and worthy of being sold but they chose not to make money out of them for that was not the reason to mate the dogs in the first place, A rare breed is Bob and his wife not many like them in this world
Steve1

Judron and Nancy, Evaluating dogs" personally" regardless of titling dog has always been the way to truly select dogs for breeding. It is not a indictment of any one who does sport with the dogs. If I lived in a country that demanded it, Then of course I would. But they would have to still pass my evaluation, regardless of who else said or determined they were exceptable to them. In the US, there are a group of working dog owners that are presently trying to come up with a evaluation system that allows for real scenario evaluation of young dogs between 8-12 months that takes place in woods or river bed or places that inherant traits can be evaluated and posted videos of dogs inherant reaction, not trained response brought on by repeatitive training for such event. A system that allows for instinct response, intelligence, courage, tracking, obedience, nerves, basicily test a dogs temperment naturally, mental and physical ability based on his inherant qualities to be considered. Test to be set up under differant conditions each time. It is about evaluating dog, not evaluating trainers. If anyone has any input or interest in this you can pm me and I can give you info as this is still in the developing stages.
Hank

desert...I'm quite aware of that:-) and I don't have a problem with your evaluation. After you evaluate a dog for thier inherant reaction...you must test for training and response to the handler. If you can't get the dog to cooperate with you, the handler, what good is he/she. I'd give your new tests a go....what harm could it do...! I'm trying my dog on sheep this weekend....after introducing him to them over the last few weeks...I'd like to see the dogs you're evaluating handle a flock once they are trained...because an evaluation just shows interest......or lack there of!

And so we come back to the EFFORT the owner/trainer is prepaired to put in - invest time and money - in order to bring out what there is hidden in these dogs geneticaly!!

The title and breed survey systems are this exactly...what more you can achieve with the dogs than becomes an individual thing...jump out of a helicopter with your dog tied to you, herd sheep, walk on water if you can...thing is the piramid theory; THE WIDER THE BASE THE HIGHER THE PEAK!

Better to have breeding stock with real examinations conquered, where you as an individual then want to make the cut-off point for your breeding programme becomes easy.

Your titled/breed surveyed stock (that you consider not good enough) will still be better for someone who used up till that point absolutely un-tested stock for breeding!

judron , schh sport are always the same patterns , you can make allmost any dog perform whitin these patterns as they become the dogs safezone , the dog knows what to expect , whats coming next  etc , now I was in france several years ago , and they had a nice setup , the IPO trained  dogs were send on a guy in a suit with a bamboo ringsport stick that rattles
 more than 60 % of the IPO certified dogs didnot even come close to the helper who did nothing more than rattle his bamboo when the dogs were at about 60 feet away

saw the same in holland a few years ago , when the decoy in the blind replaced his whip for a stick with a plastic bottle on the end of it with some marbles in it

also Ive seen dogs from famous breeders , schh 3 kkl  and everything , breaking off their schh routine  for changed circumstances on the field
these dogs are good for nothing more than sport , and certainly not breeding material

you will be amazed at the amount of dogs with schh 3  that will totally stop performing when they come on a slippery or moving floor or other situations

so sport is sport and nothing more ,


@ APO , what do you think captain max had in mind when he said working dog ,  a dog that can pass a trail with 75-75-75 and be a good pet , or maybe he had smething more versatile in mind , a breed that could be used for as many different tasks as possible , guiding the blind , militairy , police , herding , guarding , search and rescue , to name a few

now im not saying anybody whos breeding untitled stock is a serious breeder , but the same goes for the ones breeding titled stock

@duke1965; Its very difficult to say exactly what he had in mind as many of his writtings can be interpreted and missinterpreted depending on which side of the fence you sit/stand.

We must also be aware that his vision and practice was inside a society back in the end of the 1800's.

Many dogs were used in farms!!!

He asked us to take care of his working dog and to keep it a working dog...he did not mention scores - where, and how he will be mantained as a working dog!

Today; I dont know where the farms have gone in Europe, and the use of other machinery and technology has more or less made the dog redundent!!

Having said that, we come to today, where the GSD is in apartment buildings!!!!!

Of course the GSD is also in the SERVICES as he was also designed to be. BUT, the question is; "Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument "...where do we stand with this??!!!

I feel very comfortable with my team and the people who work with us that we are doing justice to the mans vision both in keeping his dream alive, the dog within the standard he outlined and the dog working VERY WELL.

At the end of the day we must look ourself in the mirror and hope that we have left something tagiable for others to grab a hold of when we go!

well , APO  I dont measure quality by titles ,I  breed dogs , not papers , and most of my breedings are not in pet homes , most (exept pets ) are Xrayed and working one way or another
I have dogs in personal protection , securitycompanys , search and rescue , army , patrol , narcotics , SCHh sport , KNPV , guiding blinddog  , even one in a circus guarding the wild animals at night  etc


many of these dogs are not titled , but are breedworthy for me

something else than routines
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fd6lqY0_wTE 

"Its very difficult to say exactly what he had in mind as many of his writtings can be interpreted and missinterpreted depending on which side of the fence you sit/stand.

We must also be aware that his vision and practice was inside a society back in the end of the 1800's.

Many dogs were used in farms!!!

He asked us to take care of his working dog and to keep it a working dog...he did not mention scores - where, and how he will be mantained as a working dog."

Very well said, apo!