Is Electric collar necessary to train precision? - Page 12

I will also add that after the correction as described here  multiple times before by me   is  completed then I never forget to  do command  come again and when the dog comes it will be happy time. 
Prager ​ Hans

I would also like to say that non of this should be done with anger in your heart. This is an act on your part. You need to be a decent actor, but nevertheless it is an act.  If you are angry anytime during training of the dog, then take a brake. 
Prager Hans

Jim said: Show me that dog in 3 years doing tracking, obedience and protection work and lets see the precision and the happy obedience outside of it's yard.
Jim, hundred mile trip is started by one step and then another and then another.  Simple to complicated . Complicated based on the foundation of former- less complicated exercise. This  video is not a test, but reminder that e collar is not necessary in any training regardless if it is easy or complicated.   If you need test then as a  test  should serve you recognition that there were dogs performing their tasks really well hundreds or even thousands of years ago  without a benefit of an e collar and I think it is part of arrogance of humanity which thinks that what is happening now is THE  best way then it was ever done in past.  And that is not necessarily the truth.   
Prager Hans

Here's a little video of Damian in training today.  We might not be on the Podium, but I like the way he works, his training has all been done without electric, pinch collar or even a lead, you can see my "handset" in the group practice.

Margaret N-JH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHeVQknM5aY&list=UUDfHg9phTVh57-0NFNUhicQ&index=1

This is another one of our training sessions from a couple of weeks ago.

Margaret N-J

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_S-52rV8pM&list=UUDfHg9phTVh57-0NFNUhicQ

Hans,
There are many ways to drive from NY to California and we all must choose the best route for ourselves. I will only say that I am not a wolf and my dog is not a wolf either. I am also not a dog, pack theory is great in concept , interesting and should be understood. But, for me it has little to do with training and working with a dog. I do not want submissive dogs, scared dogs or dogs that work out if fear. Some dogs will not submit so easily and that causes additional problems. I never want to see my dog cower and I never intend to cause that. One can achieve far better results with out the need to completely dominate an animal and cause it to go into submission. For some this may be ok and work well, for others this is not an option or the goal.

I have expressed my views several times and will leave it at that. If you see my position as arrogant, well that is simply another reason for me to discontinue participating in this thread.

Jim

"Using the e-collar is using the e-collar. Saying that someone only uses the collar "a lil bit" is on par with a woman being "a lil bit" pregnant.

And who are these top handlers that are not using the e-collar? Give me the names of a few people on the podium at championships that don't use e-collars."

I think it´s a difference if someone must use whatever the tool in a hard way and plenty compared to someone who can do without for the most part and with more finesse. As I don´t follow the persons I was thinking about 24 hours a day it may be a few who don´t do as they preach, but if they say they don´t use it on seminars etc, and people that trains with them also confirms this  I suppose for most part this is true. This is not so strange because if it´s not allowed to use e-.collars in a certain countries you better do without if you don´t wanna train hidden in the bushes so to speak. If banning tools is right or wrong is another discussion, but also in US you have IPO-folks who say they train without e-collar and use much "positive" trainingmethods with sucess, like shade and her GSD reiki, 97 p in protection in 2010 AWDF championship for example. I not gonna give you any names because as you understand no one can with 100% certainty controll if a person is lying or not so it´s rather pointless, you can´t be certain on anything if you play that game;)

I like how the OP has went from PRECISION to "there were dogs performing there tasks PRETTY WELL hundreds and thousands of years ago without ecollars."

So now PRETTY WELL = PRECISION?


Although I'm done debating this issue, I would finally like to see some of those PRECISION dog videos. With or without e-collars.

I have stayed away from this topic, but will say that I see ecollars like many medicines....it is great to use to get to a point of well being, but it often becomes a mainstay to function successfully. I hate dependency of medicines or training tools once well being has been achieved. 

Being dependent on any training device, to me, indicates the 'training' is not 'taking'. Like not being able to work a dog without a tab hanging from the collar.