This is a placeholder text
Group text
by apoArmani on 18 May 2011 - 19:05
To answer Nancy (with respect), your statement; "...based on the impressions of the judge(s)..." Actually whilst this true in a way when the judge is analysing the prospect dog with the eyes, much the same way as in a normal show...then though, there is the very detailed inspection of the prospect where he/she is tested and measured in every way (measuring tape and stick, scales, gun, etc...used to do this with).
And to begin with before even thinking of the external aspects of the prospect - must go through a courage test (short attack and a long attack). If the prospect fails this, they can not continue further, if they are not judged to have a pronounced fighting instict, they are KKL2 (thats if all is ok with anatomy inspection). To be alligable for Class1 the prospect MUST have fighting instict pronounced and lets go on command.
Finally and very important, if the prospect fails the Breed Survey, they are only able to re-take the exam 12 months later, thus their breeding is hampered if they wish for progeny from this prospect to have Pink Papers.
by steve1 on 18 May 2011 - 22:05
Exactly, No one over here will buy a dog from untested Parents as against buying one from Two Breed surved Dogs,
A lot of you Guys are refering to the Show lines who get KKL1 or 11. They are a completely different kettle of fish to the WL who has gone through the same to gain his KKL1 or 11
Say what you will but the SL has a completely different temperament to the SL,
If this was not the case then why have a SL and a WL why not just German Shepherds,
The forte of the SL is looks and up to a point it can Bite on a sleeve but certainly not in the same context as a WL dog can, as cannot a WL compete at the same level in the show ring in most cases they are good at what they do
As it turns out the WL must get a Show Grade, but on average cannot compete with the SL dogs as cannot the SL compete with the WL in the Protection phase, Horses for courses but both have to do the work before they can gain a breed survey
IF one Guy is a SL owner he wants to get the grade in the Protection the WL wants to get a passing grade in the Show ring
What it boils down to is this the SL will only be a Show dog after getting his breed survey and probably be bred to produce more SL pups,
The WL will do the show bit to go on to gain his breed survey then finish with the show bit, The Breed survey is there for the right to breed from the dog officially as laid down by the govening bodies
If you have an untested dog or even a police dog it would be rare anyone would take a Pup from them over two breed surved WL dogs, i am talking about Belgium i know you Guys probably think different in the USA, But over here there are more WL than SL
Steve1
A lot of you Guys are refering to the Show lines who get KKL1 or 11. They are a completely different kettle of fish to the WL who has gone through the same to gain his KKL1 or 11
Say what you will but the SL has a completely different temperament to the SL,
If this was not the case then why have a SL and a WL why not just German Shepherds,
The forte of the SL is looks and up to a point it can Bite on a sleeve but certainly not in the same context as a WL dog can, as cannot a WL compete at the same level in the show ring in most cases they are good at what they do
As it turns out the WL must get a Show Grade, but on average cannot compete with the SL dogs as cannot the SL compete with the WL in the Protection phase, Horses for courses but both have to do the work before they can gain a breed survey
IF one Guy is a SL owner he wants to get the grade in the Protection the WL wants to get a passing grade in the Show ring
What it boils down to is this the SL will only be a Show dog after getting his breed survey and probably be bred to produce more SL pups,
The WL will do the show bit to go on to gain his breed survey then finish with the show bit, The Breed survey is there for the right to breed from the dog officially as laid down by the govening bodies
If you have an untested dog or even a police dog it would be rare anyone would take a Pup from them over two breed surved WL dogs, i am talking about Belgium i know you Guys probably think different in the USA, But over here there are more WL than SL
Steve1
by duke1965 on 19 May 2011 - 03:05
so steve , it all boiles down to selling pups , breed titled dogs and sell your pups easyer , hhhmmmm , who again was breeding for money
by the way , how many :: last posts :: are we going to get from you on this
@ apoarmany , the pedigreesystem you discribe goes for germany , most countries in the world give FCI pedigrees without the breedclub having a say in it
by the way , how many :: last posts :: are we going to get from you on this
@ apoarmany , the pedigreesystem you discribe goes for germany , most countries in the world give FCI pedigrees without the breedclub having a say in it
by steve1 on 19 May 2011 - 05:05
duke1965
Steve1
Steve1
by apoArmani on 19 May 2011 - 08:05
@duke1965; Its true many breeders in countries where the kennel clubs will readily punch out registrations for the sake of $$$, have almost criminally low requirements for 'breedworthy' parents.
To add some countries still do not even allow for SchH at ALL!!!
This brings the responsibility back to the TRUE breeder who rases the bar for his/her own sake. How??...He/She does not do the minimum required, he/she breeds with breed surveyed stock and registers them with the laxed 'non-profit' org (KC/FCI) and is therefore more responsible and ethical to the integrity of the breed.
The thing is most are in denial...and fail to recognise the NEED to go this way for many reasons...it costs MONEY to have a dog go through the system (even if you do it yourself) the travel to the club 2-3 times a week working for the titles, fuel to and from, time etc... without guarantee of success makes it easy to say to hell with it my dog bites...so it works!!!
And to further damage the total system, they try to justify their actions to new-comers and confuse them too!!
Thing is its not the bite but the control aspect of SchH/IPO where weaker dogs capitulate and fall apart...and these dogs should NOT be considered as Breeding prospects. To add to that the dogs without a pass for HD/ED.
The breeders who do this are well within their rights to demand that the price they charge for their puppies and titled adults (who have real titles) are sold at a premium, because the genetic foundation is there for others to go forward with. Thing is most buyers look for the lowest possible price when buying breeding stock...then wonder what went wrong!
Lets remember that the majority of puppies sold end up in homes as pets, in a family. These dogs must be of sound HEALTH at least...then comes that they MUST be of SOUND Character to deal with every day life...NOT be aggressive.
The systems in place with a Breed Survey are more than adequate to regulate this...and FAR BETTER Than nothing at all!!!
To add some countries still do not even allow for SchH at ALL!!!
This brings the responsibility back to the TRUE breeder who rases the bar for his/her own sake. How??...He/She does not do the minimum required, he/she breeds with breed surveyed stock and registers them with the laxed 'non-profit' org (KC/FCI) and is therefore more responsible and ethical to the integrity of the breed.
The thing is most are in denial...and fail to recognise the NEED to go this way for many reasons...it costs MONEY to have a dog go through the system (even if you do it yourself) the travel to the club 2-3 times a week working for the titles, fuel to and from, time etc... without guarantee of success makes it easy to say to hell with it my dog bites...so it works!!!
And to further damage the total system, they try to justify their actions to new-comers and confuse them too!!
Thing is its not the bite but the control aspect of SchH/IPO where weaker dogs capitulate and fall apart...and these dogs should NOT be considered as Breeding prospects. To add to that the dogs without a pass for HD/ED.
The breeders who do this are well within their rights to demand that the price they charge for their puppies and titled adults (who have real titles) are sold at a premium, because the genetic foundation is there for others to go forward with. Thing is most buyers look for the lowest possible price when buying breeding stock...then wonder what went wrong!
Lets remember that the majority of puppies sold end up in homes as pets, in a family. These dogs must be of sound HEALTH at least...then comes that they MUST be of SOUND Character to deal with every day life...NOT be aggressive.
The systems in place with a Breed Survey are more than adequate to regulate this...and FAR BETTER Than nothing at all!!!
by steve1 on 19 May 2011 - 09:05
apro Amani
You will never convince a lot on here that the work involved or getting a Breed Survey means anything, all a lot want to do is to own German Shepherd Dogs and Breed them regardless with as little work to them as possible, the more work they put in the less Money they are making plain straight simple facts, but they would never admit to it
However there are a few like Bob and Sue who love the Sport and WORK that goes with it
For myself to go the training club it costs me over a 100 dollars a week in fuel costs to me a fair amount, But certainly worth it after a good training session all in the hope of getting the Dog Titled and Korclassed, and not for the breeding part of the dog to make money from it.
It is done only for the accomplishment and abiding to the rules of the Governing body but most of all to say it is a job well done by the Dog and me
Steve1
You will never convince a lot on here that the work involved or getting a Breed Survey means anything, all a lot want to do is to own German Shepherd Dogs and Breed them regardless with as little work to them as possible, the more work they put in the less Money they are making plain straight simple facts, but they would never admit to it
However there are a few like Bob and Sue who love the Sport and WORK that goes with it
For myself to go the training club it costs me over a 100 dollars a week in fuel costs to me a fair amount, But certainly worth it after a good training session all in the hope of getting the Dog Titled and Korclassed, and not for the breeding part of the dog to make money from it.
It is done only for the accomplishment and abiding to the rules of the Governing body but most of all to say it is a job well done by the Dog and me
Steve1
by Nancy on 19 May 2011 - 09:05
I think you are missing the concern that many appreciate the work that goes into titling and breed surveying the dog but that the KKL1a, SchIII Breed Surveyed dog may NOT have the necessary characteristics for a TRUE working dog, as opposed to a sport dog.
by judron55 on 19 May 2011 - 10:05
there are dogs that get schutzhund degrees that get by with shoddy work just like there are shoddy true working dogs...for thse that think schutzhund is meaningless, how do you evaluate your dogs? This sport dog vs true working dog crap is just that....crap! What's the difference in pedigree of a sport dog and a true working dog? The only difference I see is the individual dog and its training...period! Come on folks...I'm trying to learn.....school me:-)
by apoArmani on 19 May 2011 - 11:05
What can a normal working guy (not a breeder and/or a professional trainer) who has a full time day job and a family with a wife and 3 small kids do with his male pup??
Turn him into this:
http://www.youtube.com/user/apoArmani#p/u/13/DAneDj2ILzk
THIS IS NOT AN ADVERT!!!!
" TAKE THIS TROUBLE FOR ME: MAKE SURE MY SHEPHERD DOG REMAINS A WORKING DOG, FOR I HAVE STRUGGLED ALL MY LIFE LONG FOR THAT AIM"
Rittmeister Captain Max von Stephanitz
1864-1936
...And that MUST be the objective of every TRUE breeder and every GSD Owner...
Turn him into this:
http://www.youtube.com/user/apoArmani#p/u/13/DAneDj2ILzk
THIS IS NOT AN ADVERT!!!!
- Is the male a World Champion (BSP/BSZS)?... NO!!!
- Is he a FULL TIME kennel Dog?...NO!!!
- Is this male a 'Breeding Machine'?...NO!!!
- Is this male a Service (Police/military) Dog?...NO!!!
- Does the dog have HD/ED free status?...YES
- Is the dog Titled??...YES
- Are his titles REAL?...YES
- Is the dog Breed Surveyed??...YES
- Can his owner/trainer take him into ANY situation (Bar,Club,Hospital,Shopping Centre) without a leash and be 100% sure that the dog will be TOTALY under control and when needed be there for the owner/trainer and his familys' PROTECTION??...100% YES
- Can this dog or his type fit into any family in a drop of a hat??...YES
" TAKE THIS TROUBLE FOR ME: MAKE SURE MY SHEPHERD DOG REMAINS A WORKING DOG, FOR I HAVE STRUGGLED ALL MY LIFE LONG FOR THAT AIM"
Rittmeister Captain Max von Stephanitz
1864-1936
...And that MUST be the objective of every TRUE breeder and every GSD Owner...
by steve1 on 19 May 2011 - 12:05
Judron
That is right, Now let these Knowledgeable Folk tell us the difference in the breeding, or shall i help them
ME' i go for proven lines which have worked consistently for GENERATIONS with sound bones at National and International level, note i emphasis Generations.
Now i guess the Folk who do not believe in Titles and a breed worthiness as a criteria to base a dog on, will go for a Dog which has done none or little work in the Sport and go more for the Dogs which for generations have done little in the ScH sport and in doing so these Dogs will NOT have earned a breed Survey or Breed worthiness Certificate, Of course none of this is needed according to many on here, The fact that they can breed from there Non working dogs and pass the Pups on to go to the Police or Narcotics or PPDs etc Hoping they will do some good But they themselves have done none or little work except reap in the Dollars
So they do not need to buy dogs with titles in the Pedigree or breed worthiness just so long as it is a German Shepherd Dog, could have a bit of ScH in but preferably not according to some
What a base for a person to breed these dogs on to me it is bloody pathetic, No wonder there are so many of this breed in shelters today
Nancy
What are you talking about If a WL shepherd gets a Breed Survey, it is not only a competent working dog in the sport side but it also has a very sound constitution and Physically very good as well, What you are saying then is that Dog would not be no good as a Police Dog a PPDs dog or Narcotics dog, Or would its Pups be any good for those things, as i said above you want Dogs which have done nothing to breed these sort of working dogs you talk about
However according to you then i am in DEEP POO POO when my next pup arrives, Both its parents are KKL1 both top ScH3 dogs with Championship scores, Both are impeccably bred, the Father of the Pup is a rare bred dog indeed, and one of few like it left in the world today from this Famous Dog, The mother is also related to it and also a full sister to a WUSV Champion.
So perhaps i should be going for a Pup with Parents that have done nothing themselves but perhaps the owner has sold a few progeny from them on to work as PPDs and Police etc
Steve1
That is right, Now let these Knowledgeable Folk tell us the difference in the breeding, or shall i help them
ME' i go for proven lines which have worked consistently for GENERATIONS with sound bones at National and International level, note i emphasis Generations.
Now i guess the Folk who do not believe in Titles and a breed worthiness as a criteria to base a dog on, will go for a Dog which has done none or little work in the Sport and go more for the Dogs which for generations have done little in the ScH sport and in doing so these Dogs will NOT have earned a breed Survey or Breed worthiness Certificate, Of course none of this is needed according to many on here, The fact that they can breed from there Non working dogs and pass the Pups on to go to the Police or Narcotics or PPDs etc Hoping they will do some good But they themselves have done none or little work except reap in the Dollars
So they do not need to buy dogs with titles in the Pedigree or breed worthiness just so long as it is a German Shepherd Dog, could have a bit of ScH in but preferably not according to some
What a base for a person to breed these dogs on to me it is bloody pathetic, No wonder there are so many of this breed in shelters today
Nancy
What are you talking about If a WL shepherd gets a Breed Survey, it is not only a competent working dog in the sport side but it also has a very sound constitution and Physically very good as well, What you are saying then is that Dog would not be no good as a Police Dog a PPDs dog or Narcotics dog, Or would its Pups be any good for those things, as i said above you want Dogs which have done nothing to breed these sort of working dogs you talk about
However according to you then i am in DEEP POO POO when my next pup arrives, Both its parents are KKL1 both top ScH3 dogs with Championship scores, Both are impeccably bred, the Father of the Pup is a rare bred dog indeed, and one of few like it left in the world today from this Famous Dog, The mother is also related to it and also a full sister to a WUSV Champion.
So perhaps i should be going for a Pup with Parents that have done nothing themselves but perhaps the owner has sold a few progeny from them on to work as PPDs and Police etc
Steve1
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top