Workinglines vs Showlines - Page 11

bubaboo,

I hear you, The creation of the breed was for herding and all sort of guarding and protection of the herd, farm and family, but then industry took over, no more herding, so what to do to keep the breed, answer was to enter it into new horizon of wars and police jobs.

Structure for herding is what the dog was designed for, so what to do to make the breed fit for jobs that do not need such a structure? breeders bred drives and temperament for police jobs and paid no attention to "fancy structure"

On the other hand, shows were another bigger market for the breed, so what to do to keep hand on this market? answer was breed for color, structure and trot and pay no attention to "unwanted frightening drives".

Bubaboo, no one now breeds for what the standard says neither on structure nor on temperamet, breeders breed for both sides of extreme coin, but no one breeds for the original golden middle breed was created and designed for.

It is so funny

Xeph, I don't know what kind of service dog you require, but I do know that the breeder I got my two working line GSDs from consistently places dogs in service dog homes (mobility assistance, medical alert, signal and guide dogs, etc); last year she had a litter that produced 3 service dogs.

As someone who is very interested in history, but is relatively new to the German Shepherd breed (but not to working dogs) I find it very sad that the breed that was once practically synonymous with guide dog is now rarely used as such. Especially as the blind people I have talked to have all prefered the GSDs to the Labs and Goldens they have had.

My last two washouts were from WLs...I said no more.  One was insane, the second was just a poor match for me in personality...great breeder, not the kind of dog I cared for.  My preference for the work is WGSL, but I do not have two years to raise a puppy, and I cannot afford the super high price tags of the adults.

So now there is a Doberman in my house.

Didn't Stephanitz advocate showing GSD's too? 

He did, as far I know, he valued and. made sketches and taught proper structure for efficient trot

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=920-klodo-vom-boxberg

He had shows but was very clear that they could not be used as criteria for breeding.

I agree with Gustav on the wall, even in mondio you see dogs that can jump the wall fall apart trying to get over it.  60% seems of getting over the wall seems to be mental.  In training the dogs can do the palisade no problem but you see some fail when it comes to the actual trials.

Not used as criteria for breeding or not used at the only criteria for breeding? Do we know that for sure?

http://Von Stephanitz founded the Verein für Deutsche Sch·ferhunde, SV (German Shepherd Dog Club), becoming the first president, and in a short period of time achieved the standardization of form and type in the breed. A standard was developed based on mental stability and utility. The captain's motto was "Utility and intelligence". To him beauty was secondary, and a dog was worthless if it lacked the intelligence, temperament, and structural efficiency that would make it a good servant of man. A breed standard was developed as a blueprint dictating the exact function and relationship of every aspect of structure, gait, and inherent attitude.

Klodo was to my eyes a much better dog than his sire and 1920 SGR Erich.  And what is the title SCH H for Klodo please explain .. not sure that it is a Schutzhund title at all??  If we can believe what is written almost all of the dogs in Klodo's pedigree had a herding title or no title at all.  Apparently in von Stephanitz's time titles were more of a guideline than a "rule".  I believe in 1925 there were no working or show lines .. just one line and all GSD.  The motto "utility and intelligence"  would seem to indicate that Max liked dogs with a complete tool set.  The GSD played quite a different role in WWI than WWII and the appearance and build of the WWII dogs indicated that the GSD had been beefed up in size and muscle to do war dog and guard dog work by WWII Germany.  By late 1936 Max v Stephanitz was dead and WWII had yet to begin.  Von Stephanitz had long been forced out of the GSD leadership as a major player before his death.  By 1920 the GSD form and standard had long been set and the breed books were closed I believe, so it is only factual to say that the dogs before 1920 were the dogs the founders saw as the ideal for the breed otherwise they should not and would not have closed the breed books.  The oversize dogs that are too tall and too large often seen today in both working and show lines are not what the founders envisioned.  There are some GSD alive and walking about that look like the founders vision but they do not have huge heads and they are not 28 inches tall.  I do not stand in awe of the founders visions but I do get exceedingly tired of dopes claiming that only their particular flavor of the GSD (working or show) is the only true GSD and what the Founders and Max V would approve of.  For the most part the GSD is not the same dog that Max v. started with and like all dog breeds it has been changed according to the latest fashion many time and most of all changed by the Germans after WWII as a marketing ploy. 

I agree with Bubba's post, especially this part:

.... I do get exceedingly tired of dopes claiming that only their particular flavor of the GSD (working or show) is the only true GSD and what the Founders and Max V would approve of.  For the most part the GSD is not the same dog that Max v. started with and like all dog breeds it has been changed according to the latest fashion many time and most of all changed by the Germans after WWII as a marketing ploy. 

Some people talk about 'the standard' as if it was handed down by God, and engraved on a tablet. They need to realize that's not the case. The appearance of most dog breeds has changed considerably over the years, and will likely continue to do so. What the breed clubs need to beware of is getting too far away from what buyers want and expect in terms of appearance and temperament. Many dog breeds have fallen so far 'out of fashion' that they are now extinct.