Where are Old style lines in America still available? - Page 11

I found the RSV 2000. It looks to be a group that broke off from the SV and believes:Philosophy- "

The preservation of the German Shepherd dog and its genetic resources as a utility dog is an important part of maintaining cultural heritage. The aim of the Schaeferhundverein RSV2000 e.V. therefore is to breed a healthy and fit-for-purpose German Shepherd.

"German Shepherd breeding is utility dog breeding and must always stick to utility dog breeding, otherwise it is no longer breeding German Shepherd! "

(Quote: Captain of Stephanitz, founder of the breed of German Shepherds)"


What they believe:

1)"The registered German Shepherd Association Schäferhundverein RSV2000 e.V. considers itself heir to the ideals of the founder Max von Stephanitz: The German Shepherd shall be bred as a multi-purpose utility dog."

2)"Defined utility dog characteristics are indispensable and must be preserved."

3)"Tasks and objectives of utility dog breeding must be brought in line with external general conditions."

4)"Sustained education and training as well as the application of scientific progress in breeding and training methods are considered to be prerequisites and contribute to preserve the German Shepherd as a utility dog."

5)"The entire spectrum of the standard shall be exhausted by using the instruments that direct breeding. The amplitude of the genetic pool forms the basis of our breeding and shall consequently be preserved."

6)"All measures that direct breeding require a transparent documentation and objective evaluation of the unique utility dog characteristics of the individual animal."

7)"The creative potential of competing interests shall serve the purpose of common goals. Mutual acceptance is based on communication structures which facilitate the recognition and resolution of common problems."

8)"The top position of the German Shepherd as a utility dog shall be demonstrated at the Siegerprüfung of the Schäferhundverein RSV2000 e.V."

9)"The achievements of dog handlers shall be appreciated in accordance with their impact on breeding toward the preservation of the cultural value of the German Shepherd."

10)"Training shall be considered to be animal protection, guided by the functionality of the dog and the ethical principles of human conduct towards animals."

How they defone a working dog:

"

A utility dog is an efficient and skilled working dog. By virtue of its drive qualities and constitution this dog can be instructed and utilised to fulfil versatile tasks.

The utility dogconstitutes a value in itself. To preserve it and its genetic resources shall form part of the care of cultural value.

The working dog: Due to the dog’s innate behaviours and capacities people use it to support their own work. By doing so, people assume the right to put the dog at their disposal. From the beginning of domestication, this was the basic motive of humans to enter into symbiosis with the dog. This anthropocentric approach is favourable to the animal in such a way as it obtains the potentiality to act upon its drives and cognitive capacities.

Efficiency. A particular quality of the work is necessary to expose the efficiency of the utility dog. It is determined by physical and psychical components. To claim efficiency implies the development and examination of these capacities. These efforts are conducted within the limits of ethical animal protection.

Ability. The utility dog owns the required prerequisites to be instructed. These prerequisites are not necessarily to be exhausted. When using the dog as strictly a social and companion dog, it must be allowed to enjoy itself in addition to receive the necessary instruction.

The instinctive or drive qualities describe the psychical components of the constitution. They determine kind and development of the functions and reactions. The varied purposes of use of the utility dog require different drive qualities. The drive determinants of behaviour result from the fundamentals of preservation of the species: hunger, sexual drive, escape, aggression. Composition and degree of specification determine the purpose of use. Constitution. It is determined by components like drive qualities, anatomic overall structure, vitality, longevity, mobility, strength and endurance. They all have to match the respective utilisation.

Constitution. It is determined by components such as drive quality, anatomical structure, vitality, longevity, flexibility, strength and endurance. They must all correspond to the respective purpose of use.

By man. Having acquired the right to utilise the dog, people took over responsibility. We are obliged to breed, nourish and instruct the dog in order to enable the animal to fulfil the respective tasks within the context of ethical animal protection. Particular importance has to be attached to the preservation of genetic resources.

Different tasks. he variance spectrum of drive qualities and constitution effect the variety of applications people use according to their respective needs.

Trained. The utilisation of the utility dog requires its training. This training channels its natural drive behaviours into the desired conduct. Such a process is based on the ethological cognition as well as the cynological and empirical knowledge. Man’s right to influence the natural conduct of the dog in order to form and control it for determined purposes also implies compulsive acts. By doing so, commensurability has to be observed. Overcoming conflicts while being trained shapes the dog’s personality.

In addition to that, the training of utility dogs has relevance to breeding. It serves to select appropriate animals by carrying out defined examinations and make them available to breeders."

 
  Has anyone thought of starting a club in America?

Sarah

Hi Sarah, I haven't been on here in a while but I do come over for pedigrees and I run through here. I saw the topic and I am very interested. I have uncovered some old old blood--American (from the late 70's and old 80's) that still had the German influence of super smart working dogs. It is blood that only about 10 people in the world have--lots of good health, and conformation I like--no extremes. I am going to breed to this dog this summer--he's out of frozen semen--and we bought a puppy out of him and an American dog with a lot of ScH titles in her pedigree. So it's out there. If you would care to know more, I invite you to write me privately @  vonisskgsd@outlook.com and I will be glad to share that info with you. I'd rather not get into the lines etc here because A) I want to keep my secrets to myself and share with only a few and B) I just don't feel like all the flack...........The puppy we bought is stunning and has incredible drive. I've been doing a little rag work and ball work with him and it's on. Talked to the breeder earlier and she said the girl she kept back is training for AKC CH, of course, but she has also joined a ScH club and her girl is doing the bite pillow. They will be 5 months old tomorrow.
I'd love to talk to you more.
 

Dutch Hill in Canada is based on the old Trommel lines. My girl is linebred on the old Trommel lines and I love them.

Also I agree with Sunsilver about Darby Dan. And I'd be careful with those Valientdale dogs also. I know she breeds for work but she also has a thing about color--black and silver--I met her many years ago and just didn't care for her. At the Nationals in Topeka 3 years ago, we were nack in the OB section and I saw a black and silver dog and asked and of course that was where it was from. She had a UD but her conformation was poor and I don't mean for shows. It was terrible. I personally wouldn't want one....................
 

Well, I have a Police Line that's  the old way.

http://rosshausshepherds.blogspot.com/

Sarah, the older I got....the smarter my parents became. What you are beginning to understand is what I have lived in the breed. It has basically changed, and the ones that can't see this are the ones that don't have first hand knowledge of what it was. Some of us are trying to preserve it. And it has nothing to do with age, but more with what level of exposure you had with the breed many many years ago when the dog was different. It's kinda like some show people who have been in show world for 50 years, they have no CLUE about strong working ability.....but they have been in the breed for 50 years. Today, there are a lot of sport people who are only living in the sport world for breeding, training, and owning their dogs. The versatility aspect of the breed is easy to lose sight of when our fishbowl is small.

Von....and Jerry I will contact you both later today as I am trying to get my son off to school! Thank you both very much for posting!!! 

Jerry.....YES, YES, YES!!! I LOVE your dogs!!! That is exactly what I had in mind!!!!!

Gustav that makes a lot of sense!!!! :-)

Do you or anyone know of other working dog groups that still value working ability and are not "watered down" as people have mentioned with IPO? Would it be like Mondio or French ring or something or do they have similar problems?

Sarah

I started in GSD in the mid 70's bought and sold a some in the 80's and a crap load in the 90's. My goal has never been to be in the GSD business but to own the type of dogs I grew up with. My first experience was watching a courage test type bite where the dog took the helper off his feet. I was sold right there on my bicycle. In the early 80's I started training with a club, and told the director what I was looking for.  3 weeks later I had my very own imported GSD. Two weeks after I got him I was able to take him out of his kennel. As time passes it gets harder and harder to find hard, tough, civil dogs. The breed gets softer and weaker all of the time. Teaching a dog to bite is a lot different then teaching a dog to bit when he should. One of them WILL be there when you need him and the other well maybe.

Paul

Gustav has it bang on the money, Sarah. The dogs he and I knew as kids were totally different than the ones of today. There are some good dogs around still, that have the versatility, but they are getting fewer and fewer.

You get what you breed for:

Working lines are being bred for sport, which means over the top ball drive.
Show lines are being bred for good looks.
American show lines are being bred for side gait and good looks.

And if it can't win in one of the three venues above, no one is interested in breeding or buying it. (Yes, I know, I am over-generalizing to make my point...)

When I was a kid, my cousins had a sable and white collie. She was purebred, smaller than the Lassie collie (which was oversized, I later found out) and looked a bit more like a border collie in the shape of her head. She didn't have that pencil-thin, tapered snout the show collies have.

She was as smart as a whip, a great watch dog, and, of course, had the inbred herding ability a collie was meant to have.

It took me many years to realized what my cousin had, and would never have again. The currrent version of the collie is bred for tons of coat, pretty pencil-thin heads, and not much else. I am sure some of them may still have the genetic ability to herd, but for practical purposes they are useless, as they overheat too easily with all that coat, and it catches on bushes and brambles. About 80% of them have some degree of eye problem (collie eye). Inbreeding in most lines is over the top, and many litters of both collies and shetland sheep dogs are so closely bred that genetically the COI is as high as it would be if they were siblings.

The dogs like the one my cousin had, the TRUE Scotch collie, are gone for good, forever.And, having seen that happen, I worry it COULD happen to the true GSD.

we still have ''old style'' breeders in the great USA! Breeders who do not do any xrays, any work, or any type of peer review. Now that the subject of frozen semen comes up I need to ask, why is that stud dog not represented by sons, grandsons, or great grandsons? The too easy answer was every breeder back then was too stupid to use this dog. Then how could the breeding be so good in the old days that stupid breeders made a stud dog so good that we need his semen 40 years later? Get involved and learn than contribute back to the breed. I am concerned about the people who point out problems and never offer any solutions.

Could be that the dog whose semen Vonnissk (big howdy do, girl! ) is planning use does have great-grandsons...the problem is, they don't represent him. In other words, they are far removed from him down the overangulated, side gate, lack of nerve strength road that she is intending to side step through the use of his frozen semen. Just a guess that any dog which represents him doesn't exist.