Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 11

Exactly :)

There seems to be an assumption that titled dogs are no good for certain working roles and it interests me to know how this is justified???. I know people have used Schutzhund training to work a dog in personal protection and the dog failed to protect which is not surprising when the dog has had no training in civil protection.

To arrive at the assumption that titled dogs are no good, have people taken good titled dogs and tried to retrain them in other roles or trained progeny from good titled dogs that failed???

The same applies to the good showline dogs out of Germany, who's actually got hold of one of ther better German showline dogs and worked them for a comparison against their mediocre working line dogs???.

 Rexy:

          There is such a wide diference in titled dogs. I train with several top handlers in the Schutzhund field and I can tell you there is lots of hard work involved at that level that many can,t or won,t do. The big thing  here is what your idea of work is everyone has there idea of what work is to some it,s prancing around the ring and the dog hanging on the sleeve, to others it,s a 95 or better Schutzhund score per phase others Police K-9 work or Search and Rescue, scenting dogs ect...  

 Each discepline deals with a different level of training in specific end user needs. I,ve always said I would like to see a seperation of Sport titles and then a breeding test title that all dogs would go thru to get a breeding title more then just a Schutzhund 1 routine but a event where the dogs see some real pressure and stress in there work. The original test from Schutzhund were more in depth had things that put the dogs thru more of a physical and mental challenge but once the core nature of the dog changed and the structre of a correct dog was changed then the test was changed to fit the dog and it should be visa versa.

 Most dogs that have a good foundation training in Schutzhund can cross train to any other venues. Some titled for the specific needs of only the sport are not such good choises for further venues. It,s all in the eye of the beholder and the abality to honestly judge and let the dog be judged in a test that will let there core being shine thru.

Titles are a good starting point along with a good solid evaluation of the dog.
 

You know my opinion of this topic is it is turning out to be more about training than breeding. And whats more odd about it is one group is not recognizeing the others criteria for training. Because a person doesn't train for sport doesn't mean he doesn't train and evaluate his dogs ability to perform And a working dog breeder works and trains his or her dogs based on real life needs and requirements. As I know Sable well I do know his dogs are real working dogs, and I don't know any one that spends more time training from the time they are old enough to look at a rag. He takes those puppies by the time they are weaned and can track through the woods on liver scent. by the time they are ready to place they are way further along than 90% of the dogs you could buy from most people. He deffinitly is not a dog peddler that breeds every thing that comes along. He has his dogs working all over the east coast and Canada in real world conditions and those conditions are real. The conditions are to save lives and they are doing that. They are a real asset to the public and whether you agree with his methods or not, his dogs are in high demand from police over the country. Because a person chooses not to title every dog he raises is his choice, no one elses. For every person that says you should never breed a untitled dog, there will be 10 more that will tell you they don't see it as meaning much. Bottom line is no one can point a finger and say because you don't agree with me you are ruining the breed. If you have pure bred GSD's you have the same gene pool to pull from as anyone else. You may not be bringing the same things to the top, but it doesn't mean it isn't there, the good and the bad.
Hank

@ Rexy...." the lack of routine patterning allows some dogs to cross over to sport and some not able to". Now how someone can derive from that; " there seems to be an assumption that titled dogs are no good for certain working role" is beyond my comprehension. NOBODY said that ALL titled dogs couldn't do certain work roles.....but it is a fact that many cannot. Every dog that is to be bred in Germany is titled. Do you know how many dogs that come over here titled that can barely do Sch much less real work. They may be showlines but the point is THEY are titled. So we ignore this so you can make your point????I deal in reality! BTW, I have titled dogs in sport, I have handled/trained dogs in Law Enforcement. More importantly, I now evaluate dogs for acceptance into Law Enforcement academies. I know both sides of the coin from hands on experience....I don't talk about what I haven't done as many on this board do. 

Perhaps you should test one of Helmut Raisers dogs bred through the RSV2000 scheme and see if they can do the job Gustav and base the opinion on a properly bred working dog, not a titled show dog???.

Oh so show dogs are not titled German Shepherds?????If they are you overspoke and leave it at that.

rexy , a titled german shepherd is a titled german shepherd , and crap is crap

also not every dog bred in the RSV2000 , is going to be a great dog , because helmut is president there

Breeding dogs MUST have a BREED SURVEY.

We all know that for alligability to partake in a BREED SURVEY, the dog MUST have: HD/ED pass ("a"), a 'G' rating at a conformation show,BH,AD and a further working Title (SchH/IPO)

This seperates the breedworthy prospects from THE REST- and with good reasons!

Class 1; Reccomended for BREEDING

Class 2; Acceptable for BREEDING

and the above IN GERMANY (and in some other European Countries) get PINK PAPERS.

If and there are SOME who breed without this; they get white papers for the offspring.

As with humans - so with our dogs; there are PHD students and there are those who fight and scrape through a degree. As is humans...so in dogs too...there are those who have 'connections' and the degree/title is delivered home!!!

We can also add that whilst in humans as with dogs; just because the parents and/or grand parents etc...may have been Scollars or high scoring (in dogs) indiviuals - the ones in the past who did not have that fortune of education may be for many reasons. The genetic potential was there but they were in the wrong hands (in dogs)...had no money and became a laborer, died young, went to war and never returned and so on in humans.

Thing is we must draw a line - at least with our breeding programmes...since we are responsible for what comes as far as our dogs are concerned!

A PHD is not so easily DELIVERED and neither is a BREED SURVEY (KKL).


So if delivered...it may as well be zero, even though its in ink on the documents! 

When you have titled/breed surveyed parents and ancestors who do the work...its like insurance (better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it).

I think the poiint though is that the breed survey is based on the impressions of the judge(s) against some standard.

The standard includes performance in a highly standardized shutzhund test that does not tell the performance of the dog in a NOVEL situation.  The highly standardized format allows some dogs to be conditioned to things they would normally not do due to repitition.  So performance in schutzhund is a good predictor of how well the dog has done under these conditions (and probably with a good trainer) but not necessarily in real life working situations as Gustav so clearly pointed out.

 It also does not test at all for hunting drives which are highly relevant to detection and police work.