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by missbeeb on 22 February 2009 - 01:02
Well... you'll have to get the salt out for me... I've never trained for Sch or any kind of bitework... but, I'm getting interested, till I read about the abuse etc! I think I understand pack behaviour pretty well, but the whole prey / drive thing???
by Schluterton on 22 February 2009 - 01:02
Well take heart .............. the abuse things are few and far between ........... and one of the reasons for that is that a truly abused dog will not present a pretty picture while doing obedience ........ leading to low scores and an overall lack of success. But as with any activity that involves animals of any kind there's always going to be a few abusers and also people that think there is abuse where none really exsists.
by Get A Real Dog on 22 February 2009 - 04:02
Ok people.........
90% of bite trained dogs will go after the person on the ground during a fight. I have performed the scenario dozens of times with the same results. My old competiton dog did it to me.
The common theory is that dogs are genetically predisposed to eliminate the weak link from a pack. Does not mean the dog equates pack behaviour to an outsider. Just they will always want to go after the weakest link.
There is a video of several dogs doing this at a police dog seminar on the Working Dog Forum but you have to jion the forum to see it. If I had mopre advanced dogs right now I would put up a video. Then let everyone say what a shitty trainer I am and how I have a terrible relationship with my dog.
I have just quite trying to talk about this because people just don't get it. They want to live in as Jeff says the "Disneyland" world where their dog will always protect them or go after the bad guy. Even very experienced people who have seen it right in front of them (or even participated in the scenario and had it happen to them) want to make some exuse for why it happened. It happened because that is what nature and evolution put into the dog.
90% of bite trained dogs will go after the person on the ground during a fight. I have performed the scenario dozens of times with the same results. My old competiton dog did it to me.
The common theory is that dogs are genetically predisposed to eliminate the weak link from a pack. Does not mean the dog equates pack behaviour to an outsider. Just they will always want to go after the weakest link.
There is a video of several dogs doing this at a police dog seminar on the Working Dog Forum but you have to jion the forum to see it. If I had mopre advanced dogs right now I would put up a video. Then let everyone say what a shitty trainer I am and how I have a terrible relationship with my dog.
I have just quite trying to talk about this because people just don't get it. They want to live in as Jeff says the "Disneyland" world where their dog will always protect them or go after the bad guy. Even very experienced people who have seen it right in front of them (or even participated in the scenario and had it happen to them) want to make some exuse for why it happened. It happened because that is what nature and evolution put into the dog.
by july9000 on 22 February 2009 - 06:02
I agree Gard and Jeff
Altought I didn't do it with my own dogs..I've seen it and it is true..most dogs will go directly to the weakess link..or the one in a vulnerable position on the ground. I've noticed that the dogs with the highest drive tend to be the more suceptible doing this..but even dogs that we didn't suspect .
I've seen dogs who just won't bite if you don't have a sleeve too!!
Altought I didn't do it with my own dogs..I've seen it and it is true..most dogs will go directly to the weakess link..or the one in a vulnerable position on the ground. I've noticed that the dogs with the highest drive tend to be the more suceptible doing this..but even dogs that we didn't suspect .
I've seen dogs who just won't bite if you don't have a sleeve too!!
by Mike Burke on 22 February 2009 - 06:02
I have worked this Inges numerous times @ my SchH club when Frank first got him.... Very strong dog and for real.
It's unfortunate this happened.... Frank is a good guy. I hope he recovers quickly.
It's unfortunate this happened.... Frank is a good guy. I hope he recovers quickly.
by Mystere on 22 February 2009 - 06:02
I have to ask.... Yahoo, what was the purpose for starting this thread in the first place? For discussion purposes, it could have been presented as a hypothetical.
by missbeeb on 22 February 2009 - 09:02
Gard, this is what you and many others do, I don't, so I believe you must be largely right, but entirely right... I don't know.
Let's assume I am walking my pp dog and am attacked from behind, by some big guy, he's choking me, so I have no voice... what does my dog do?
by Jeff Oehlsen on 22 February 2009 - 11:02
Quote: Jeff, oh goody! I get to disagree with you; this doesn't happen very often. Just Wednesday I had Caleb wearing a muzzle in my living room...I was on the bottom....in front, just about everywhere in lots of different scenarios, both muzzled and not. When I was on the bottom, he was even careful where he stepped...I received not one hit. Was I winning and just didn't realize it? Little 5'3" me? I am such a badass.
In your living room. Boyfriend is the decoy???? I know you are a bad ass, so maybe that is it. LOL I know I would not put you on the ground, decoy or not. I cannot imagine the repercussions. LOL
Quote: Sorry, I haven't made myself clear. I do not believe that dogs automatically attack the weaker of the two, in a real life situation... quite the opposite.
And your experience with this is ??????????????????????? I "believe" is not something that works for me. I have seen it done in front of me, and I have participated in this, and got pounded by my dog. He had NEVER been trained for PP and went for the guy on the bottom......me. As far as the previous "bond" issue, he was MY dog, and MY dog only. Pretty good bond. Never tried it in the living room.
Quote: we also did muzzle work with that dog.i was never on the ground but i can't see my dog ever biting me because i am on the bottom with someone on top attacking me!
Try it sometime on your training field with someone the dog has never seen before. If your training is good, you will be right. Remember to cover up though. LOL
Quote: Suggestion. Pop a muzzle on your dog and get someone to stage an "assault" scenario, that will tell you what your dog will or won't do. 9 out of 10 people belive their dogs will protect, 9 out of 10 dogs will run away when the pressure is on.
Years ago, when I was even more of an asshole than people think I am now, I had a guy at a bar telling me that his dog would protect him and that training just wasn't necessary. I used to drink, and drink a lot, so I told him that wasn't true, and to go and get his dog and I would show him that an untrained dog doesn't know what to do, and will go into flight. He got all bullshit, and said that I would get hurt, and I told him that I was drunk enough to not care, and he could just take the dog off me, and I would learn a valuable lesson in how stupid I am, and how I know nothing about dogs, and would buy drinks the rest of the night. (7pm at that time)
He went and got his dog, and I chased his dog out of the parking lot, and all the way back to his house. Threw up a few times, and then laid on the ground. The dog came over and started licking my face. I gave him a good scrubbing and made up to him, feeling like a huge asshole for doing this, knowing the outcome. He showed up and was pretty pissed at the dog, and me. Then the lady (his neighbor) who owned the house came out and yelled at us for making so much noise, and to get that stupid drunk, and stupid dog off her lawn. Ah, the good old days. : )
Quote: Well... you'll have to get the salt out for me... I've never trained for Sch or any kind of bitework... but, I'm getting interested, till I read about the abuse etc! I think I understand pack behaviour pretty well, but the whole prey / drive thing???
No one can abuse your dog but you. I have only known one club in the entire time that I have been in dog sport where what they called training, I called abuse. AGAIN, only YOU can abuse your dog. All the rest of the clubs I have been at, there has been NO ABUSE AT ALL. The people are quite nice. Most of the dogs are nice, and you can hang out with them.
Quote:
In your living room. Boyfriend is the decoy???? I know you are a bad ass, so maybe that is it. LOL I know I would not put you on the ground, decoy or not. I cannot imagine the repercussions. LOL
Quote: Sorry, I haven't made myself clear. I do not believe that dogs automatically attack the weaker of the two, in a real life situation... quite the opposite.
And your experience with this is ??????????????????????? I "believe" is not something that works for me. I have seen it done in front of me, and I have participated in this, and got pounded by my dog. He had NEVER been trained for PP and went for the guy on the bottom......me. As far as the previous "bond" issue, he was MY dog, and MY dog only. Pretty good bond. Never tried it in the living room.
Quote: we also did muzzle work with that dog.i was never on the ground but i can't see my dog ever biting me because i am on the bottom with someone on top attacking me!
Try it sometime on your training field with someone the dog has never seen before. If your training is good, you will be right. Remember to cover up though. LOL
Quote: Suggestion. Pop a muzzle on your dog and get someone to stage an "assault" scenario, that will tell you what your dog will or won't do. 9 out of 10 people belive their dogs will protect, 9 out of 10 dogs will run away when the pressure is on.
Years ago, when I was even more of an asshole than people think I am now, I had a guy at a bar telling me that his dog would protect him and that training just wasn't necessary. I used to drink, and drink a lot, so I told him that wasn't true, and to go and get his dog and I would show him that an untrained dog doesn't know what to do, and will go into flight. He got all bullshit, and said that I would get hurt, and I told him that I was drunk enough to not care, and he could just take the dog off me, and I would learn a valuable lesson in how stupid I am, and how I know nothing about dogs, and would buy drinks the rest of the night. (7pm at that time)
He went and got his dog, and I chased his dog out of the parking lot, and all the way back to his house. Threw up a few times, and then laid on the ground. The dog came over and started licking my face. I gave him a good scrubbing and made up to him, feeling like a huge asshole for doing this, knowing the outcome. He showed up and was pretty pissed at the dog, and me. Then the lady (his neighbor) who owned the house came out and yelled at us for making so much noise, and to get that stupid drunk, and stupid dog off her lawn. Ah, the good old days. : )
Quote: Well... you'll have to get the salt out for me... I've never trained for Sch or any kind of bitework... but, I'm getting interested, till I read about the abuse etc! I think I understand pack behaviour pretty well, but the whole prey / drive thing???
No one can abuse your dog but you. I have only known one club in the entire time that I have been in dog sport where what they called training, I called abuse. AGAIN, only YOU can abuse your dog. All the rest of the clubs I have been at, there has been NO ABUSE AT ALL. The people are quite nice. Most of the dogs are nice, and you can hang out with them.
Quote:
by Jeff Oehlsen on 22 February 2009 - 11:02
Quote: I have just quite trying to talk about this because people just don't get it. They want to live in as Jeff says the "Disneyland" world where their dog will always protect them or go after the bad guy. Even very experienced people who have seen it right in front of them (or even participated in the scenario and had it happen to them) want to make some exuse for why it happened. It happened because that is what nature and evolution put into the dog.
The denial aspect of this is incredible. I grew up with a father and mother that beat it into me that there is the world you live in, and there is the world that people see. The first time I saw this, I was stunned. It was the last of the "Disney" in me. After that, I figured if I was gonna get pounded by my own dog, he better be a hell of a dog. : )
Beetree, get out of the house some day, and go visit a Sch club if you can. If you don't like that one, go to another. Never want to discourage people from trying something.
Got cut off. LOL
The denial aspect of this is incredible. I grew up with a father and mother that beat it into me that there is the world you live in, and there is the world that people see. The first time I saw this, I was stunned. It was the last of the "Disney" in me. After that, I figured if I was gonna get pounded by my own dog, he better be a hell of a dog. : )
Beetree, get out of the house some day, and go visit a Sch club if you can. If you don't like that one, go to another. Never want to discourage people from trying something.
Got cut off. LOL
by missbeeb on 22 February 2009 - 12:02
Jeff, I don't think you're an asshole... but you do have an.... individual sort of writing style!
My last para, in my previous post... what's the answer please?
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