DDR, Czech and West Germany working bloodline - Page 10

I thought low/high threshold was a commonly used term on this forum, is it not?

Essentially crossing an individual dogs threshold will make a situation that is too stressful for it to learn within that moment.

I thought earlier in the thread Prager said that most people don't know how to train a dog that has high protection and low to medium prey drive.  I guess I assumed that included dogs who in addtion to lower prey drive also have behaviors which become undesirable quickly in the face of stress (low threshold).

I see the terms Nervy and Low threshold thrown around a lot on this forum when DDR's are being described.  Prager has said they are high protection dogs and can be trained in a more effective manner.  How is that done?

I would llike to hear from people who have successfully trained dogs for sport that have higher protection yet also have lower threshhold and prey drive, than the typical top sport GSD has. 

It would really be nice to hear from those people for a change.  I only know of a couple on this thread that have actually worked, titled and trained any dogs in any discipline.  Even fewer from pups.  

I don't know what lower threshhold is... but

Overall then my male was a puppy, he was not balanced, he had more defense over prey. He got plenty of cheap wins, grip work (not geneticaly full grip) and building him up untill he settled to a comfortable "himself". He was not an early bloomer, but also not painfully slow.

One had to take him through new scenarios more than once, he was aware of his surroundings and lacked the drive to not care. He had to be build up, taught and shaped.
After some training, he is a nice dog, easy to work, with full grips and good confidence level and excellent work ethics! You gotta have those to man track 4 miles or search 2 story building with 12000 sq warehouse!

He is not a point dog cause I am not a high points handler. I am in the 80ties, with some luck and counting abilities of my footsteps I can get the scores to low 90ties.

My dog is not perfect by any means, but he has exactly the stamina, work ethics and the genetic predisposition to do OK in sport and really well in "normal" life (easy going around horses, cats, other dogs, kids). He did not come out of the mother like that, he had to be trained A LOT. He got his SchH3 by three years, he almost failed it (doesnt like to out). But we made it! He is not a great point tracker in FH either, but when no other dog wants to track, that sucker will work the track till he finishes it.. took 2 years of tracking him in all sorts of crappy conditions.
 His daughter is almost the same, more handler soft but she is a female and I am a little demanding handler. She is not as tough, or hard/ civil if you will...but she is a MUCH BETTER sport dog. I wish I had more time to title her, she will get her three  but it will take me forever. That girl was born to work. She is not a dog that is nasty, she is nice but if someone pisses her off, she is a narly bitch! I did not want to believe that until I saw it with my own eyes. LOL Her father is an opportunistic dog, he will call for the challenge, the daugher will not but I did not see her back off either. None of my dogs I have here is perfect, they all lack something, or excell in something else. Some take more time to mature, some dont like to out, some like to give me the finger too much.
I am not titeling my dogs to prove anything, I do it because I can and it gives me a thing or two to do with my dogs! I get to know then in and out.

I forgot to write that he is a Czech dog bred by z Jirkova Dvora..lol.. that was the point of the novel above!

Thanx Hans....

Essentially crossing an individual dogs threshold will make a situation that is too stressful for it to learn within that moment.

I thought earlier in the thread Prager said that most people don't know how to train a dog that has high protection and low to medium prey drive.  I guess I assumed that included dogs who in addtion to lower prey drive also have behaviors which become undesirable quickly in the face of stress (low threshold).

That is not my understanding of threshold as it is commonly used in dogs. Also, I typically think of most DDR dogs as having higher prey thresholds.

Threshold is the point at which a stimulation triggers a reaction. So, a low prey threshold dog doesn't take a whole lot of prey stimulation to trigger a prey response. A dog with weak nerves will typically have lower thresholds because they don't have the strength of nerve to control that urge to response. Imagine a stalking leopard who couldn't stop rushing at every prey as soon as he saw a prey behavior (--that cat has a problem and is gonna die of starvation). Compare that to the cat who has the patience to wait until the animal is very, very close before leaping into a prey attack. Same also can apply to defense thresholds -- a dog with weaker nerve feels more threat from less stimulus and is also likely to have lower thresholds and responds prematurely -- before assessing the true threat level.

Low prey thresholds are often (inadvertently) selected for in bitesports -- easy to trigger a puppy into reaction, easier training. Not always so great to live with--or to do other training venues with. It's really a pain in herding, for example; a huge detriment in service dog work, too.

Christine

Christine,
Excellent post!

Christine, you are truly one of my favorites!   Good illustration!

Christine, it sounds like Jubilee is the reincarnation of Frost in a bi-color jacket...priceless! 

Gustav, co-sign your comment--the lady doth know her stuff, and thoroughly so.     It's one reason why I refer anyone who tells me they want a 'thinking' type of GSD to her...because I know Christine recognizes the trait, appreciates it, has it in her line, and selects for it.

I thought earlier in the thread Prager said that most people don't know how to train a dog that has high protection and low to medium prey drive.  I guess I assumed that included dogs who in addtion to lower prey drive also have behaviors which become undesirable quickly in the face of stress (low threshold).
 
Now I get it.  This a  is a common confusion due to different  definitions of the same term ( defense)  and different training points of view. 
  And no that is not what I mean. When I say defense dog then   I mean stable dog which has higher ratio of defense over prey in  defense : prey ratio. 
I explain. 
 I believe that it is a mistake  to think that there is necessarily something wrong with such dog  ( dog with higher defense then prey)  as far as his nerves go. It may be truth but not necessarily.  Yes general consensus in sport circuits is such that dog who responds to negative pressure  while in prey  with  defense is a problem. And the truth is that  if the dog is in prey and prey pressure  is overwhelming to a dog to the point where  he then becomes defensive  is a problem. I agree with that.     
 However in sport circuits it is believed that ( all)  defense = fear= lack of ability to deal with stress= poor nerves. That believe  is in my opinion caused by the type of dogs and type of training  used in sport.  That is the training  exploiting  prey abilities of dogs. Training of dogs  which are   genetically high prey dogs and have almost no natural courage based protectiveness in defense.  Dogs in prey look good and  such training is thus necessary  since   the training for competition demands  to get high points. Many sport dogs are thus bred to be genetically  mainly  based on prey an so is  their training. I have heard top trainer of national level to say that he does not want to ever challenge his  dog negatively ( in defense) because he does not want his dog  to even know of,  or feel hint of the fear - ever. Then, he continues, such  dog is  unlikely to ever display fear. However sport people are talking about pressure while the dog is  in prey mode  and the situation is overwhelming to such  dog while he is in prey mode.
That is not negative challenge  which  I am talking about though. That is another negative. Yes it is truth that PP dog in prey is able to overcome and negotiate  of most protection situations while he/she is  in prey. However there is  negative  challenge in defensive scenario( rather then  high pressure in  prey. )  and  that is true negative challenge which puts  a dog into defense without having the benefit of being first  in prey and then channel into defense.  In real life, sooner or later,  protection, security/LE/ area protection/...   dog will be in situations where he /she will be challenged negatively and will need to overcome the fear with courage ( inherited or acquired) without help of prey.  And that is what I am talking about. 
  Thus when I say defense I really mean courage based protectiveness under negative challenge where fear is overcome by courage. Here is sequence:
Negative challenge-> fear/ or suspicion-> courage ( inherited and /or acquired)  -> aggression. 
Prager Hans

Prager,

You talked about Prey : Drive proper/best ratio and how such a dog should be trained , i.e in the drive it is at ease with, whether prey or defence. For old style GSD training in defense should work well for the dog. But what about working the dog on field for various jobs, missions, once you tell the dog to go for the bad guy or set him on track or looking for a bomb etc, how good is a 50:50 dog compared to 60:40 or 70:50 dog, any difference needed in handling? Any handler/police officer  (will be able to work the 50:50 dog)? or such a dog needs different handling techniques to be learned? Sorry I hope my questions are clear to you?