Breeding without titles... open discussion, not an argument - Page 10

It's difficult to respect the titles, when the lemons are getting theirs as well.  A lot of hard work? Whatever.  A lot of fun IMO, unless the dog plainly isn't suited for it.  Takes a better trainer than myself to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

Same with livestock work or any other venue; use the dog that fits the job best.  And when breeding, utilize nature's gifts to the dog, and worry less about what it's been trained for.  Two very different perspectives, which should be very obvious without having to go through half a dozen pages of bickering.

I think that for a breeder, dabbling in the various venues is more useful than specializing in any one of them.  In doing so, you begin to understand which characteristics are best appreciated for which lines of work, and not so well in others.

I believe that successful sporting carreers are the work of perfectionists, and successful breeding results are the work of pragmatists.

I am the "end user" with zero interest in breeding.

I would be delighted if the "right" dog for me for HRD work came from an unbroken line of SCH III, with FH titles out the wazoo.  I, too, have multiple (NAPWDA and IPWDA) certs on my working cadaver dog and am more inclined to take a dog from proven SAR parents or working police dogs than sport dogs.

The reality is that schutzhund does not guarantee me the parents carry the following attributes:

--solid nerves
--scenting ability and hunt drive
--an ability to work independantly but with me without relying on me for cues (like a herding dog should)
--good temperament

A problem I have with schutzhund is that people *can* get an unsuitable dog through the levels of sport as it is so predictable. Were everyone 100% objective about their dogs and canned the ones that really should not have made it, I think it would be a better test.

I can't believe the nonsense being spouted here. The working police dog/ cadaver dog/ search and rescue dog/schutzhund dog all come from the same lines. There is no sport breed, working police breed, S/R breed. Breeding means nothing if you're just breeding pedigrees.
Titling a dog is time consuming...and the results of that training is subjective....what a dog looks like in a trial may be completely different at home....training. But you all know this........

From GSD Newbie:

I watched a police k9 show the other day and a mal that was featured that could NOT track. I watched two episodes of the same dog failing and the handlers not even attempting or noticing their dog was not even working. This is supposed to be a true k9 on ca streets. Thanks but no thanks..... If it were not for the spotters calling them on the radio the guys would never have been found by the inept and clueless with a sad working dog that never once even dropped his nose to actually use it.

I did not see this show so did not see this dog working, but I will say the typical WORKING tracking or trailing dog is NOT going footstep to footstep with its nose in the ground.  On an old track with little scent, yes. But with something relatively fresh - a few hours - more likely they will be working at a trot with the head level.  Schutzhund tracking is an obedience excercise, not true scentwork. 

Newbie, is this the same show w/the fat guy who claimed they had to stop b/c the DOG was "winded and fatigued?" I lmao at that when I saw it. Uh, sure...it's the dog who's exhausted, Tubby. They'd only been tracking like half an hour. Hell, I have tracked way longer than that (and actually found what we were looking for) w/out being ready to have a heart attack.

Nancy, you have some very good thoughts, or at least they're similar to my own, so of course I think they're good. LOL

I also agree with Daryl; I think breeding and training are totally different talents and to really excel at breeding, I think some dabbling into different venues and learning temperaments best suited to such and such is helpful. However, I think if we went back to breeding versatility and true proper temperament, the rest would fall into place more easily. 

Too often, imo, people get a dog, then another, and all of a sudden they're breeders. I prefer the opposite approach; get some dogs, live with them, really live with them, work them in a few different venues, test them repeatedly under different stressors over a period of several years, and really learn about temperament and what is truly useful and conducive to breeding true working dogs. THEN, when you're sure you know what direction you want to go, start looking for the proper dogs. Maybe you have one you really want to use; don't buy the first dog that complements that one on paper. Search high and low until you find one that's just right. It could take years, literally. It did for me.

But then, when you finally start breeding, though you may be new at breeding, you're far better-equipped, imho, to gauge temperament than someone who hung out at the local SchH a couple of times, bought two puppies, is in the process of titling them (if it'll actually happen is anyone's guess) and now they're breeding them and everyone is giving them the thumbs up because they "work" their dogs...even though they know NOTHING about the rest of those dogs' temperaments. THAT is where people assuming SchH titles guarantee quality get themselves into trouble, imo. 

I honestly don't think this "discussion" is so much about titled and non-titled as it is about responsibility and ethics in breeding altogether. 

IMO, A dog makes a set of papers, papers do not make a dog.
A tiitle is only as good as the dog who carries it.
Good or even Great dogs, not that I have had the pleasure of seeing to many GREAT ones, are where you find them, titles or no titles, whether one breeds or not is there buiness, not mine, but I will agree one should for sure see something special worth passing on. I'm to busy looking and challenging my own females to see if they got what it takes, to worry about any one elses, but if I was buying a pup, I would want both parents to be working dogs, which could be a few different fields IMO, then go look closer at the two, just to see if they earned those titles or deserve to be doing the job they have.

Nancy you have made apoint that many don't realize and less understand. Sport dogs perform a routine that after many many repititions of training, allow many non working candidates to achieve success. Working dogs have to react and adapt and then perform to the unknown successfully to be effective. Anybody that has trained in both of these venues knows the difference. Not putting down working dogs or sport dogs, just that there is a difference that allows some sport dogs to cross over and other sport dogs not to be able to cross over. There is no good or bad, just a difference.

As long as titles doesn´t test the genetics of the dog in a sufficent way breeding to much on titles is obviously not wise, hardly not so much to debate about. If the goal for the working GSD is to be able to be a multipurpose policedog then I don´t see how this is tested in SCH or another competition based sport. Likewise, a policedog may be mediocre, I guess it depends on selection and standards if a policedog should be breedworthy. Of course it would be negative if SCH or another sport disapeared, afterall it gives us some info about the dog.

I would welcome if the rules for breeding would be harder, but the question is then what should be the minimum standard, a SCH-title is not enough apparantly to hinder people from breeding showdogs with little workingability. In the end it´s up to the breeders to do correct selections as long as there are no rules that regulate only good dogs are used.

Sorry nancy, I should have been more clear. This dog was out for an evening stroll. This dog was NOT scenting be it in the air or on the ground. I have worked air scent and an urban tracker both for SAR, The police mal was strolling and the two over muscled males not very much left between the ears were huffing and puffing and gabbing so much for the cameras that if the spotters had not led them and they had come near the suspect they would have strolled on by. The dog seemed to be checking roof tops by sight, was about the only indication posible the the dog may have thought he was working.

     Not all working lines are genetically awesome and not all showlines are wimpy duds. Part of it is the handler as well.

Gsd Newbie - Ok - that's why I said I did not see the show. Just that footstep tracking with a deep nose is not a typical working mode for many situations.    Actually I have seen a lot of folks work trailing SAR and LE dogs who expect the dog to just take them there and not have to understand they need to be able to read the dog and work out negative indications.