This is a placeholder text
Group text
by Blerio on 03 December 2009 - 08:12
Pencil, I didn't include you in the names on my post! Does that mean you may be also posting as one of the 4 names mentioned. My evaluation of the judging problem is part of the initial cause. If the selection of judges was taken out of the hands of committee's, then it would go some way to resolve you're argument about the "non judge" disadvantage. If you're hypothetical judge who may also be on a committee, could not return the favor, because he/she would have no influence in future judging appointments, this may also go some way to establish a backbone in you're hypothetical weak judge who may then judge honestly. This linked with other tight controls in training,qualifications and that dishonesty will not be tolerated, and this could be a start to a change in attitudes and minds. Bill Owen.
by Mackenzie on 03 December 2009 - 08:12
Hello Bill. if you read Paulie's post together with mine you will see that we are advocating your idea about taking judges appointments away from committee's. I think that we have enough judges passed through a mandatory examination scheme and can take on the role of a Judges panel then much of the favour corruption will go.
Mackenzie
Mackenzie
by bazza on 03 December 2009 - 08:12
I think mackenzie is talking about unsoundness etc, not so much corruption. Sadly for the breed sometimes both go hand in hand.
by Mackenzie on 03 December 2009 - 08:12
Hello Bill. if you read Paulie's post together with mine you will see that we are advocating your idea about taking judges appointments away from committee's. I think that we have enough judges passed through a mandatory examination scheme and can take on the role of a Judges panel then much of the favour corruption will go.
In selecting judges we should not overlook that the needs of the breed itself must come first with judges judging more to the standard than appears to be the case at the moment.
Mackenzie
In selecting judges we should not overlook that the needs of the breed itself must come first with judges judging more to the standard than appears to be the case at the moment.
Mackenzie
by paulie on 03 December 2009 - 09:12
Lets not drift back to the previous vitriol, Bill, Pencil is just as entitled to his opinion as every other person posting on this thead is entitled to theirs, we talk about about Democracy on this thread, but then a few posts later, some people try to stifle it.
We will never be able to agree with every sentiment echoed here, because we are born with the gift of free thought, which leads us to freedom of choice, ( and long may it continue ) what we dont want on this particular thread is people reluctant to post good ideas because they may be met by scorn, or ridicule.
I hope that we can all have an imput on this thread and it's outcome, without switching on the computer with trepidation, fearing a slanging match because of something written with the best intention.
Regards as always.
Paul Rattigan.
by pencil on 03 December 2009 - 12:12
Bill Owen-just to clear up one point, no I am not one of those people you mentioned earlier.
I believe its fair to say you have been in the show game much much longer than me ( I have done around 19 yrs ) so could you please tell me in your experience has a complete unknown ever been given a CC. by a British judge at a Breed show ?
I use to foolishly believe that the judge was not allowed to know the line ups in the classes, not to have a catalogue with them in the ring ( this is generally ignored ) but it makes no difference because owners soon let the judge know which dog is theirs, by entering ring and giving water or patting the dog or simple by calling dog in earshot and view of judge.Just some of the many many wrongs that need righting.
Along with a licence for judges what about using a POINTS GRADING system, then if the dog was wrongly marked down say for Hocks- Croup etc ( or wrongly marked up) then we could all know what the judge thought at the time and ascess him/her accordingly.
I believe its fair to say you have been in the show game much much longer than me ( I have done around 19 yrs ) so could you please tell me in your experience has a complete unknown ever been given a CC. by a British judge at a Breed show ?
I use to foolishly believe that the judge was not allowed to know the line ups in the classes, not to have a catalogue with them in the ring ( this is generally ignored ) but it makes no difference because owners soon let the judge know which dog is theirs, by entering ring and giving water or patting the dog or simple by calling dog in earshot and view of judge.Just some of the many many wrongs that need righting.
Along with a licence for judges what about using a POINTS GRADING system, then if the dog was wrongly marked down say for Hocks- Croup etc ( or wrongly marked up) then we could all know what the judge thought at the time and ascess him/her accordingly.
by Trotters123 on 03 December 2009 - 12:12
Now before I am jumped on - I DO NOT condone 'bent' judging, however...............................
Judging is a case of ' beauty within the eye' and upto each individuals interpretation of the breed standard (which is NOT very clear at the best of times - however even a blind man would know whether a dog is 'right or wrong')
With this being the case, if a Judge is questioned as to his/her decision then unless the dog is obviously lame or otherwise, then surely one would and could never prove the decision to other than the personal opinion of the said Judge.
To accuse a Judge of 'faciness' and putting up a dog just because they either know the owner or the owner is giving tickets at the next show is nion impossible. It would be like trying to prove someone likes one piece of music over another piece!!!
I know that some faults are extremely obvious - ie hock walking, but some of these dogs although portraying loose hind action, plating etc these can be explained away as ' the dog didn't do that when I he was under me!' ' the dog was slightly playing up' 'the dog was distracted hence he did not control his movement'
Each decision can be explained away quite easily.
Of course Judges (breed specialist or Judges who show themselves) know what dog is owned by whom. They wouldn't be worth their salt if they didn't. Many a time I have seen a Judge going over a dog and it is obvious that the dog 'knows' the Judge! They don't need a catalogue or owners to make it clear to say what is what dog!!! The top winners especially!
Also, if a dog has been doing extremely well in the ring under many different Judges then one has to ask the questions WHY? is it because it IS an outstanding dog? is it because the owner/breeder/kennel is that influentual that means the dog HAS to win? is it because most Judges know this reason so ALL Judges then just follow suit?
Remember Judging is voluntary and entering is also voluntary - if you don't like the way the Judge judges - DON'T ENTER. Not every Judge will suit EVERY exhibitor! and visa versa not every 'type' will suit EVERY Judge!
No matter what way Judging is done, there will always be complaints and there will always be faciness!
To leave on a funny or OMG note,,,,,,,,,,,
I remember about 25 years ago a certain lady needed her final ticket to make up her bitch. So she attempted to nobble the Judge for the forthcoming show. She went to the drastic measure of sleeping with him a week before the show. (They had known each other for some time and flirted but never taken it to the next level!)
The show came along and Judging commenced. Obviously she was to be in the final class for Open Bitch.
The bitch was ok and showed not bad, but did not tear the roof down by any mean in fact the whole class was much of a muchness. It came time to the placings................................she got placed second!!!!
Now was it because - the dog just didn't deserve the first and a chance of being made up? the Judge had a clear case of 'I'm judging the dogs not the other end of the lead' OR was it the case that the lady in question was such a bad lay that the Judge felt he was done!!!
Moral of this - if one is going to sleep with the Judge for the ticket - the do it AFTER you have been awarded it!!!! LOL
FRANK
Judging is a case of ' beauty within the eye' and upto each individuals interpretation of the breed standard (which is NOT very clear at the best of times - however even a blind man would know whether a dog is 'right or wrong')
With this being the case, if a Judge is questioned as to his/her decision then unless the dog is obviously lame or otherwise, then surely one would and could never prove the decision to other than the personal opinion of the said Judge.
To accuse a Judge of 'faciness' and putting up a dog just because they either know the owner or the owner is giving tickets at the next show is nion impossible. It would be like trying to prove someone likes one piece of music over another piece!!!
I know that some faults are extremely obvious - ie hock walking, but some of these dogs although portraying loose hind action, plating etc these can be explained away as ' the dog didn't do that when I he was under me!' ' the dog was slightly playing up' 'the dog was distracted hence he did not control his movement'
Each decision can be explained away quite easily.
Of course Judges (breed specialist or Judges who show themselves) know what dog is owned by whom. They wouldn't be worth their salt if they didn't. Many a time I have seen a Judge going over a dog and it is obvious that the dog 'knows' the Judge! They don't need a catalogue or owners to make it clear to say what is what dog!!! The top winners especially!
Also, if a dog has been doing extremely well in the ring under many different Judges then one has to ask the questions WHY? is it because it IS an outstanding dog? is it because the owner/breeder/kennel is that influentual that means the dog HAS to win? is it because most Judges know this reason so ALL Judges then just follow suit?
Remember Judging is voluntary and entering is also voluntary - if you don't like the way the Judge judges - DON'T ENTER. Not every Judge will suit EVERY exhibitor! and visa versa not every 'type' will suit EVERY Judge!
No matter what way Judging is done, there will always be complaints and there will always be faciness!
To leave on a funny or OMG note,,,,,,,,,,,
I remember about 25 years ago a certain lady needed her final ticket to make up her bitch. So she attempted to nobble the Judge for the forthcoming show. She went to the drastic measure of sleeping with him a week before the show. (They had known each other for some time and flirted but never taken it to the next level!)
The show came along and Judging commenced. Obviously she was to be in the final class for Open Bitch.
The bitch was ok and showed not bad, but did not tear the roof down by any mean in fact the whole class was much of a muchness. It came time to the placings................................she got placed second!!!!
Now was it because - the dog just didn't deserve the first and a chance of being made up? the Judge had a clear case of 'I'm judging the dogs not the other end of the lead' OR was it the case that the lady in question was such a bad lay that the Judge felt he was done!!!
Moral of this - if one is going to sleep with the Judge for the ticket - the do it AFTER you have been awarded it!!!! LOL
FRANK
by noddi on 03 December 2009 - 13:12
pencil.I dont know if my bitch qualifies re your question but here goes.i an known in the gsd world but am not a top kennel.Iam a hobby breeder a show goer.In 2004 when my bitch was a junior she was pulled out after the individual examination in the top 5 at most of the breed club shows i attended under both english and foreign judges.in some she remained in top 5 in others she was demoted as she wasnt that keen on running around in circles for hours on end.i do not use one of the top handlers either,tho.i do like and respect the one i generally use at germanic shows,who also took her to her top win in 2007being bitch cc winner at crufts under Eric Broadhurst and i also won bitch cc at 3 counties this year under another breed judge being Gill Gray.i would have to say that i doubt if these judges knew who the bitch or the owner was.sorry if this doesnt fit your question.with regards to withholding awards at champ.shows,the judge last year at crufts Mr.Tony Stanbra, withheld all placings in PG.BITCH much to the amazement of the crowd and he and his wife were given some nasty verable abuse from an exhibitor.i do agree with the idea of a panel selecting the judges instead of the show committees.might just increase the entries and stop the rumours on who is going to get the tickets.im so glad that these posts have now got back to the original theme.i know mine has gone off slightly but only answering a question.PS at crufts my bitch beat a champion in her class and then a champion(import) in the challenge who were both of the international type as is my bitch who incidently has also won under all rounders and judges who were once on the more english side years ago.
by Blerio on 03 December 2009 - 13:12
Hello Pencil, You're first post compared judge against non judge, the non judge could have been well known, you're last post compares a complete unknown who has been awarded a C.C. Are you talking complete unknown handler, or owner. Kath Holt, Tracey Hartley, and the Rawlings from Bamber Bridge, were non judges but if my memory serves me well they all made up females to Champion, and I'm sure there were more. I agree with you about the ducking and diving and different ploys people get up to, That may be difficult to stop. But remember it's the judge who has to stop any wrong doing in the ring. Our aim must be, whatever the exhibitor gets up to, the judge dare not waver from his task. Until we convince judges to play fair, by imposing stringent controls on them, because I don't think you will get them to change if you only ask them. And if they can't change they should never judge again. We get to hear judges verbal critiques now, and some you would think they were talking about a different dog. and you find them judging again. But you can't blame the judge for accepting another judging appointment, it goes back to the people on committee's which takes us full circle. A points grading system may be an option to consider towards the controls that will force judges to become accountable for their actions. regards Bill Owen.
by paulie on 03 December 2009 - 13:12
Pencil points out that we should judge the dogs on various points with regard to anatomy, construction and character etc.etc. there is validity in his statement, i once upon a time stewarded for Helmut Buss when he judged at BGSDTC, before he became Breed Warden, whilst judging he had charts which he told me were provided by the SV. to all judges so that there would be unifomity throughout the breed, by virtue of all SV. judges singing from the same hymn sheet, my initial reaction was that it would take too long, and that you would end up with Rag Tag and Bobtail, it bacame apparant how wrong i was when he handed me the call out numbers, he was absolutely bang on, and he was in all the following classes, so yes, you can.
I prefer giving a verbal critique, if done properly every body knows how you feel about their animal.
Regards.
Paul Rattigan.
I prefer giving a verbal critique, if done properly every body knows how you feel about their animal.
Regards.
Paul Rattigan.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top