SV Prejudice Against Sables - Page 2

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mrdarcy (admin)

by mrdarcy on 20 September 2021 - 04:09

Dog1, hello stranger good to see you posting again hope to see more from you, hope you are well and avoiding this terrible virus.

by ValK on 20 September 2021 - 22:09

Dog1 "there are lack of sable dogs that can produce VA quality"

I am really shy to ask but who's decide what is VA quality?

by Klossbruhe on 21 September 2021 - 00:09

Valk, first of all, like all dog show judging, it is subjective. One man's opinion on the day of the Sieger Show, the only show where a VA can be awarded. That man is usually either the president of the SV if he is a judge or the SV breed warden.

But you have to understand, that by the time of the Sieger Show, the judges pretty well know who the top dogs are and that is because these dogs have been campaigned all summer long at various Landesgruppen (regional) shows. There are rarely any real surprises. Perhaps just how many dogs will get the VA designation and that depends on many things which are best not discussed here.

While conformation judging is subjective, and one man's VA might be another's V, it is highly unlikely that any judge's SV or G rating would be another man's VA. Having attended 15 Sieger Shows, I can tell you that many knowlegdable people often disagree with a judge's placement, including who they choose as Sieger, Siegerin and Vize Sieger and Vize Siegerin.


by Hundmutter on 21 September 2021 - 02:09

But Dog1, there is a very real prejudice among some breeders and Show judges. Here in the UK we had a woman who was very highly respected as a GSD breeder and Judge,(she is long dead now) yet who was notorious for her dislike of Sables. To the extent that nobody 'in the know' would ever enter a sable dog under her, because they were not prepared to have their pride & joy unfairly disregarded. That accounts for a substantial proportion of dogs on the UK show scene. With a knock-on effect on the public & puppy-buyers, & thus the bred numbers of sables. As far as I know she never ever fully explained her dislike; and since she dated from earlier days in the breed when grey dogs were far more common than they became - look at some breed histories that cover Germany in the 20s/30s/40s, if you can't picture that - it seemed a nonsense. She is the most startling example but I can assure you there have been / still are others.

by ValK on 21 September 2021 - 10:09

Klossbruhe thanks for explanation but my question was rather not about technical proceeding of award but which criteria dog should demonstrate to be considered a top representative of breed.
let's say if decision is my, i won't give much thought before to disqualify from breed all SV VA dogs of last 40 years not because of color but as too mutilated physically and mentally and did become not suitable to fulfill functions/tasks breed being purposed for.


by Rik on 21 September 2021 - 11:09

valk, videos posted here in BSZS thread show exactly what criteria meets VA status. well maybe doesn't show political/owner influence.

I'm sure you already know all this.

and really, nobody anymore pretends it's about producing better working GSD. it is what it is.

by Klossbruhe on 21 September 2021 - 12:09

Hello again Valk,
The Bundessiegerzuchtschau is purportedly about conformation to the standard.
The Bundessiegerprufung is about performance of the IGP3 examination, purportedly working ability. Some say it does not measure that.
In some countries, such as the US, there is also a Universal Sieger Show which awards top spots to the dog which has the best conformation and had the best performance in the IGP3 part.

If I understand you correctly, you think that the top dogs are those which show the best performance in a working trial. Many would agree with you, many would not. The question arises, what kind of working trial. The GSD was created as a herding dog. So should the trial be a herding trial like the HGH. Yes, von Stephanitz brought the dog to the Berlin Criminal Police Department to work as a tracking dog. So should it be a tracking test and if so, what kind of tracking test. Konrad Most along with von Stephanitz proposed the dog to the German Army in WWI where it worked as a messenger dog and red cross dog under fire. Should that be the test. Later the dog was used as in WWII as a prison guard dog. Should that be the test of what is a top dog. Is French Ring, or Mondio Ring or KNPV. Stephanitz also said the dog should be a loyal family companion. Should there be a test for that, since so many working lines dogs do not do very well as a family dog.

It is obvious from your post that you have a prejudice against show lines dogs which prevents you from being objective when you call every VA dog from the past 40 years "physically and mentally mutilated." That of course is your opinion, and one certainly shared by others, but hardly everyone. And there are plenty of people, I think yourself included, who might say that all of the working dogs from the past 40 years are nothing compared to the dogs that came before this. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. There are others who will tell you the GSD was never as good as the Dutch Shepherd or Malinois etc

This I can tell you though, very few working lines breeders are interested in breeding toward the standard. They believe that temperament can be bred for and this is what they try to do. Interestingly, the standard makes no reference to working ability, although it does mention such things as gaiting and pigment among other physical requirements. If you are interested and can read German, here is the FCI and SV link to the standard.

by ValK on 22 September 2021 - 00:09

"valk, videos posted here in BSZS thread show exactly what criteria meets VA status."

i never watch it. too depressive.

"The GSD was created as a herding dog."

actually you're incorrect. GSD breed created as a WORKING dog breed, founded on selected specimens among general population of dogs from Wurtemberg and Thuringian, where at that time prevailed wolf like looking type of HERDING dogs.

"Interestingly, the standard makes no reference to working ability"

of course. authors of the standard at that time was creating WORKING breed and no one foresaw into what their descendants going to turn their creation.
people at the roots of breed realized huge potential of those dogs to be utilized in wide variety of practical applications. as you mentioned yourself, at start of XX century von Stephanitz introduced to police forces newly created breed and introduction instantly turned out to be very successful in the practical way confirming prediction and hopes of breed creators. and so on. all offers of new breed was for one or another working field and nobody recommended that dog to aristocrat houses as a hunt or toy dog.

"The question arises, what kind of working trial."

to assess capacity of dogs at same time with the breed was established schutzhund test. please note, translation in english "protection dog" not "herding dog" and that was a test, not competing event.
inspite its name, test itself was assessing dog's temperament, trainability and agility in general. anyway, due to variety of work fields breed are capable to comply in, it's impossible to make absolutely universal single test, which can explore all variation of possible use of dog. thus each particular dog being selected on basis of pronounced traits most suited to certain type of work. should be obvious, dog who excel in protection not equal to dog who excel as guide dog and competition between them would be pure absurd, albeit both dogs will find use for certain working purpose.


by Rik on 22 September 2021 - 12:09

it seems rather odd that a breed would be officially named Schäferhund and not be originally intended for sheep herding.

would be like naming a breed retriever and not being for the purpose of retrieving.

I don't speak German though so maybe I'm not getting the correct interpretation.

by Klossbruhe on 22 September 2021 - 12:09

Well Rik
I am not interested in getting into a pissing contest with you but the name of the dog is Deutsche Schaeferhund not Deutsche Arbeitshund, what does that tell you. The first chapter of von Stephanitz's book The German Shepherd Dog in Word and Pictures is The Shepherd Dog and the Herdsman's Dog. So, what was his first concern. Stephanitz always said 'No working ability, no intelligence, no German Shepherd Dog.' By definition a herding dog is a working dog. Most dogs were working dogs until the fancy dog and show people got a hold of them. His disappointment with the long haired collie led him to create his own GSD.

I am quite aware of the fact that the schutzhund prufung--tracking, obedience and protection--was breed tool to make sure that all dogs were suitable stock for breeding until it was turned into a sport. But I think you missed the point in my response to Valk. As I understand what he was saying, in his opinion, the top dogs are those who are the best working dogs.

Obviously, it is impossible to create a universal test, which was my point, which is why I responded, and how are you going to measure that---with what kind of competition or test. I don't know Valk, but I do know a great many working dog sport people and most are only interested in one part of the IGP---bite work. For them it is bite work, bite work, bite work. You do not hear them talking about obedience or tracking. They could not care less. They do it because they have to. On the other hand, world class competitors know that the outcome of most competitions are decided in the tracking and obedience portions are rarely in protection. If I had to guess, Valk would measure top dogs on the basis their protection. I doubt he would be all that interested in their tracking, obedience, agility or other abilities. And what about these fantastic biting dogs. How many of them make good family dogs, how many are safe around little children---a few for sure, but the majority?

I have titled 10 dogs to SchH, IPO and IGP over 30 years, four to SchH3, two to IPO3 and one to IGP3. When I first got into it, judges did not care if a dog was under control, for example during the Uberfall am Hundefuhrer (attack on handler) which was part of SchH1--a hard exercise where the dog had to heel before the attack. It has been long removed except for show dogs who see it in breed surveys and sieger shows, how ironic. Then the judge only cared about how hard the dog bit. Nowadays, if a dog breaks during the attack on handler at the sieger show or breed survey, it fails. I think this is correct, control is a good thing. Police departments and the military don't want biting maniacs, they want dogs they can control.

Times have changed and we must change with them. Adapt or die. Society was different 40 years ago. I have lived in Germany and Austria. Back then, you could see GSDs on the streets of cities, downs and villages with their owners. Now you do not see that. Dangerous dog licenses are required in most German Federal Provinces, the GSD excepted because of politics. We live in a litigious society now. It used to be, the saying was, 'Every dog is entitled to one bite'. But now, if a big dog like a GSD barks at someone and they are frightened or trip, a lawsuit is in the offing. Many people, apparently you too who are depressed by watching videos of the Sieger Show, yearn for the Good Old Days, but they are gone. Gone forever and they are not coming back. And the videos, nice that it is to have them for those who cannot attend, do not give a full and accurate account of the show, the dogs and how it is for the average entrant. For example, attending the stand mustering or visiting the field for the progeny group gathering is far more telling and interesting than watching the dogs prance about the stadium.

Dogs which are a creation of man and as such are subject to constant change since man is by nature a capricious animal. C'est la vie. Time moves on and waits for no one.


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