Are Belgian Malinois replacing German shepherds? - Page 7

Phil

1. Don't call them showlines . Call them the majority of GSDs.

2. That DMC Korung video is invisible to the GSD fancier's eye.

Full Grip ?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3863511772124124608&hl=en#

Phil,
You started with a moot point.  There are show line GSD's and some can work, many don't.  Certainly a man with your experience really doesn't need an explanation of this.  There are working line GSD's and many can work and do it everyday.  Some don't.  Just like there are some very good working Mali's and some mali's that don't work.  My experience with Dutch Shepherds is limited to K9's and they all work and all bite full.  That is only the 1/2 dozen or so I've seen and worked in the past year or so.  Like the others I'm sure there are some DS that don't work. 

I can take Bernhard's name off the list?  Bernhard is a friend of mine and he has worked on the street and competed with some super hard dogs.  I'll take Bernhard off the list when you achieve half his level of success and knowledge.  I don't think you'd be able to handle these GSD's that he works and competes with.  I only thought about the K9 guys that you might recognize the names.  If I listed 20 others and you didn't know them what good would it do.  I figured 4 or so off the top of my head, that you would know might be enough to prove you wrong again. 

The original thread was about BM's replacing GSD's, not show line vs working line.  I still don't think that Mali's are going to replace GSD's.  I'm not arguing that the Mali's can be great working dogs, not all of them but many of them.  I like the dogs coming over from Holland and the KNPV lines.  I recently saw and evaluated about 10 mali's imported for Police work by a vendor.  I was completely unimpressed, except for the Dutchies they had.  This was the worst bunch I had seen this vendor import.  Shallow bites and environmental issues.  So perhaps with the increasing popularity of the mali the quality is going down?  Time will tell.   

Lets agree to disagree, before we derail this thread any further.  It is a futile argument as you really don't take the time to read what I have written in my responses.  But, I don't blame you...my posts can be pretty boring, I wouldn't read them either.

Jim

Regarding the Mali Korung, it is a good test.  The decoy worked the dog  hard.   But I could do the exact same thing with my GSD, so I am not overly impressed.  From a working line GSD guy, there are many GSd's that could do that korung.  The decoy would have a tougher time swinging a 90 lb GSD around than the 55 lb mali.  That is how bite work should be.  Now, we all know that many show line GSD's would crumble under that pressure, but good working lines won't.  We put as much if not more pressure on our K9's during our weekly training.  I was hoping to see a video of some high flying mali's not just jumping over some boxes.  Honestly, any good working GSD IMO, could pass that Korung.  Perhaps, I hold working GSD's to a higher standard than some do.  To see a mali bite a sleeve isn't that impressive to me, sorry.  I much prefer the ring or KNPV videos to really show off the mali's potential.  You could have found a much better video.  How about the video of the Mali's in China scaling buildings and climbing trees, I'll give you that one.  I don't know any GSD's that could do that.

I know my GSD can't jump as high as a Mali or run as fast as some.  But I'll take 80lbs at 30 mph (because that's what I have) on a down field over 60 lbs at 35 mph for pure force.  Remember force = mass x speed.  I can show you pictures of what a full, hard crushing bite does to a bad guys arm, they are not pretty.  I really like a dog that bites a person as full and hard as it does a sleeve or suit, especially when the person is fighting and screaming for real. 

Jim

Jim of course you COULD find a GSD that can pass the DMC Korung but IMO, that has little to do with it. What I do find very revealing is that you keep throwing in the term "a good working GSD" . The DMC korung is not just a test that a good working Malinois can pass. This is the minimum need for a Malinois to be bred in Germany. Further the video that Phil posted is of the level one korung and there are two more levels that are even harder.

I think that the differences in the SV and DMC breed test speak directly to the ideals of both breeds. Just think how the GSD's (all of the breed, not just the "good working " ones)working ability would change if all of the dogs that could not pass this type of testing were ousted form breeding. Then you wouldn't have to be embarrassed when your comrades pull out a mediocre dog like Gucci and hold it up as a great example of a working dog

Christopher,
I am just trying to compare apples to apples, not exactly apples to apples but maybe apples to oranges.  From what I understand Mali's are primarily working dogs, so lets compare working dogs to working dogs.  From what I understand the German Police are not fond of using "German style mali's" for police work.  The perception is that they are bred for sport work and on the small side. They actually prefer the KNPV lines over the German sport lines. 

We all know that show lines bred for conformation can lack working ability.  We all know that AM SL dogs don't work any more and make nice pets for people who need low drive dogs.  I had a German Show line male GSD that I tilted to a SchH 3 KKL1A.  He was my first dog doing SchH.  He would have easily done the Mali Korung as well, except he loved to fight the man and still bit pretty full.  He would take decoys down on the long bite, tons of drive and rage.  But he was born 16 years ago and the show lines of that era were different than todays SL dogs. 

The original point of this thread was Malis replacing GSD's not Show line vs working line.  That is why I keep referring to working line GSD's.  Let's compare working dogs or dogs that are bred to work not show line dogs of one breed to working dogs of a different breed. 

I'm not embarrassed by Gucci, he's a beautiful dog that did what he is supposed to do.  His bite work wasn't bad for a show line.  My wife would love that dog.  I'm not embarrassed easily because my GSD works well, he has made many Mali owners jealous.  We'll see how he does in some Police K9 competitions this year and next year against other GSD's, mali's and Dutchies.  I'm  confident I won't be embarrassed. 

Jim 

I have watched the people around me go from Mals and Bulldogs to Dutchies and GSD's even after years of swearing they never would. I also don't agree that Mal's are healthier, seen many that bite their tails off, have hip problems, back issues and skin issues the same as any dog breed. Hearing about more and more dying of bloat and torsion, not to mention the mental/nerve issues in them are higher than I have seen/experienced from the GSD. 

I'm with Jim regarding the Korung. The people I know do personally test their dogs to this caliber or higher. You can't blame all of us GSD owners for what's lacking in the SV or Germany. I have publicly shown my displeasure of breed clubs many times. I think it's up to the individual here in the states to work/test the dogs you plan to breed, in a fasion that is befitting what you are looking for in the outcome. That is why I drug my dog all around as a pup and still would if I had the funds, I want him to face as many fields, decoys and challenges as I can throw at him and see how he handles it.  

I went back and whatched the compiled film clips that Phil posted and of the korung of the Mali and it was okay I,ve got a 9 year old male GSD Axel that will do everything that was done and I dare say will take much more pressure then was shown there. 

I,ll get with one of my helpers and get a video shot and put it up for your criteque I,m not taking anything away from the video posted but I can think of many shepherds off hand tht can do the shown work with zeal   

I dont even understand this discussion errr pissing match.

I have and have had all three breeds and worked other breeds. I will continue to do so. If the dog can do the job up to standard then the breed is of no consequence.

Perhaps you guys are talking about hobby dogs? Then I might understand the vehement opinions on who has the bigger ummmm.......DOG. LMAO!!!!

People who need dogs for real working situations will always choose the dog that 1. works for what they are wanting to do 2. They can afford and 3. What is available to them. 

I love Malis. I love GSDs and Dutchies as well.

One dog/breed does better than the other and some people take it personally. Professionals dont. 

People who need dogs for real working situations will always choose the dog that 1. works for what they are wanting to do 2. They can afford and 3. What is available to them.


100% Truth!