NATURAL INSTINCT TEST - Page 6

I feel like each one of those things needs a paragraph!  For example, I'm not sure what the last one means by defensively. Jumps? Comes out snarling? Also, in "watchfulness of the handler's eyes," isn't that a learned behavior rather than an instinctive one? Or are you just talking about willingness to look people in the eye? Oh dear, this could be an entire seminar.

Defensively, as in acting in self preservation.  IOW, fight or flight.  How does it handle the shock?  Does it take flight a step or two, then quickly recover and charge aggressively at the sound's origin?  Does it maintain the stress level for more than a second or two, or regain composure more quickly?

Some dog's just naturally offer eye contact to their handler, other's are lured into the handler bond with other preferred sensory modalities, or just not all that attracted to the handler, and offer fewer channels to communicate with.  It's more of a handler preference thing in the bonding process.  If you're teaching it to look you in the eye, it's probably just for performance points, and not the same effect.

Rather then theoretical discussion about each individual instincts no matter how interesting, 
 I am interested in simple tests without that person does have to spend a 1 year of life to train SchH 1 and get the  same or even better description of the dog's personality make up.  I personally believe that this can be compacted into few points for which we could test:
1. Prey
2. Defense
3. Territoriality
4. Startle x recover
5. Investigativness
6. Courage
7. Fight drive.
8. Surfaces and  Heights
9. Speed of servicable maturing
10. Endurance 
......and maybe some others.
 I believe this could be done by 2-3 standardized  tests. Yes, learned behavior would be invariably involved in the performance, but ability to learn is part of the test. Test would be simpleand  given in as early age of a dog as possible. Thus not much training would be possible. The dog would be pushed to the limit by none harmful tests  at certain ages. Younger dog which would accomplish the tests would be awarded by higher score then the dog which needs more maturing to accomplish the same test. This would be the only score given (based on age) . The rest would be pass vs. don't pass performance. In order to eliminate competition...since this is a breed ability performance test. 

Thus the test would be evaluated  like this for example:
Courage  test: Passed at 45 weeks of age. 
 
Comments?

Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

That's what I understand the tracking phase is supposed to represent in the sporting trial: The trainability of a skill, rather than any practical real-world application, which it obviously doesn't accurately represent.  They don't truly need to be taught how to use their noses effectively, only taught how we want them to use their noses, in strictly controlled fashion.  Tracking can be taught at a very early age, beginning at 8 weeks age if not sooner.

The problem I see, is at that age, their brains are like little sponges, and can learn all manner of things to a more effective result than if they were to wait until a year or two of age.  Learning curves progress and peak at different rates for different dogs, genders, bloodlines, or genepools.  Is it ideal to measure "trainability" by forcing a time constraint based on age, in a time where changes are so fluctuant?  Isn't the faster maturity associated with west german line breeding proven to have its pitfalls?  Or, are we tired of our gsd's not progressing as fast as the malinois?

Sometimes also, characteristics don't manifest themselves into a dog until a much later age, perhaps 8 months or better, such as prey drive temporarily taking a backseat to a more pronounced civil aggressive side, to suddenly later come into "full bloom".  Trainability oftentimes doesn't manifest itself very early in strongly built young males, perhaps because their metabolism spends so much energy on feuling their massive bodies.

Sexual maturity is definitely an important marker point in a dog's progression.  At 5 weeks age, most everything can be tested or evident in it's earliest stages.  Anytime in between these two timeframes is inevitably either arbitrary or inconsistent, that I can tell.  There are even significant temperament changes that can take place at two to three years of age.

Well, if there was a simple form to fill out, that a dingbat could understand, I would definitely give it a try on these puppies I mean to keep. It would be extremely interesting for a few people to do that in a few different bloodlines, and publish the results here on the forum. Would there be a dominance component? I will be having two little monsters to play with, and that might be an interesting factor to include. I'm also interested in independence and calmness. I suspect that the multi-colored chart above might be more do-able for me, as I'm not all that well versed in analyzing the characteristics. I have a good FEEL for it, but this would have to be something that was a lot more....measurable than a feeling? 

That are some great points.
 As far as early maturity goes it is important from several points of view:
1. GSD is by standard  a service dog/ herding dog/ working  dog. For each of these it is important that the length of the service life is as long as possible. That is in the youth and also at the other end of the life.
2. GSD is a "natural" dog. In Czech we call them in slang "VLCAK"  (read vltchak). which means wolf like dog. In nature through natural selection the fast maturing has best chance to survive. We should not deviate from that.
 Also I am mainly talking about tests passable by dogs 8 mo+- old. and then maybe 18 month old.
Prager Hans 
http://www.alpinek9.com

Dominance is a social role.  Even the most subordinate dog in a pack can quickly rise and assume the dominant role when the pack structure takes a dramatic shift and the most senior members have disbanded from the group and newcomers have joined.  Independance can become insubordinance under the wrong leadership.  Calmness can become laziness or lack of working drives.  The "feel" of measureable levels would be dependant on the job that the characteristic is designed to fit for.  When you've evaluated enough dogs for the job, you have a pretty good idea of what's sufficient or not, or what excellent/exceptional/pronounced should represent.  If you don't work your dogs, then you have no real reference point to evaluate them from, so it's pointless.

I'd be interested to know any actual data related to serviceable lifespan, or just how much older the "late maturers" typically exceed the longevity of the "early developers".  My guess is, the far side of life provides the greater margin of difference, and therefore, the longer service.  But that's only a guess.  I think 8 to 12 months is generally the time I decide to wash out a dog or not, and plenty of time for most undesireable quirks to have presented themselves.  The minimum age for ZVV1 is 14 months, ZVV2 16 months, and ZZV3 18 months, so what are you hoping to gain before they could attain their titles anyhow?

I do work my dogs (not police work, just Sch and maybe PSA in future), so this would be valuable to me. I think it would be kind of interesting to just TRY it, say once a month as the very young puppies grow up--assuming I can figure out ways to test them without causing any harm. It would even be interesting to track the dominance, even though I know you're right about that, Daryleret. I don't know anybody who I think is a fantastic judge of puppies, so I guess I'll just try. I understand some of the concepts, such as sometimes all you're testing for is whether or not they learned from the last test, but I think I can design some tasks or stimuli.

Why would you breed dogs with known reproductive problems?

Why would you breed dogs with known reproductive problems?