herding dog - Page 6

The Pyrenees must be raised with the sheep, and they must be raised with the dogs and family as well.
They should attack anything that is not part of their family, man or beast inside the boundaries they are given.
And it doesn't have to be sheep, I have seen them living with horses.

Yes many are not bred for this and could not do the job correctly.

Moons.

I have cared for many a property with livestock guardian dogs (while owners were away) - and the most-used guardian dogs that I've had experience with (seen for myself) are Great Pyrs.  Goat flock, sheep, and Alpacas/horses.  They are pretty laid-back and not aggressive, until something other than their owner or livestock crosses the boundaries - then they get the job done.    I have not seen livestock guardian dogs that are also (same dog) family companion dogs - however of course they are not dangerous to the family children etc or even familier dogs/cats etc that might mingle with the livestock (key word FAMILIAR) - I think they are best used as one or the other (guardian dog living with the livestock, OR family companion dog).  In my limited experience with livestock and guardian dogs.  The other breed I have experience with (guarding livestock) is Anatolian Shepherds - completely different in temperament, and the way they work.

molly

I agree with Familiar,
they know what or who belongs and what does not.

I don't consider them aggressive, only protective.

It's a lot to feed ....lol


Moons.

<< I am disappointed with the way you reacted to the other thread .>>

And I was so happy that I managed to stay cool. What part disappointed you?

<<Ulf, my friend has a Berger de Maremme for guarding the flocks...did you heard of those? they look a lot like pyrenes..actually she told me she didn't look for a Great Pyrenes because a lot of them just coud not do the job anymore..I'm glad to see that it is not true!>>

Maremmas (Italian breed) are more serious and more aggressive than Great Pyrenees (French breed). They are also commonly used. They also have the tendency to bite people while Great Pyrenees do not. That is a broad generalization but holds pretty much true.

Great Pyrenees are the majority of guard dogs. Maremmas are also widely used. These are dogs that stay with the flock better than some other breeds that are more territorial such as Anatolians and Akbash. (My Great Pyrenees has a little Anatolian in him and he exhibits that, he is also more aggressive than most Great Pyrenees).

<<You said he would kill one of your dog if he saw one..just a question (maybe it is a ridiculous one but...) Someone told me it is because shepherd ressemble to much like coyotes and wolfs?? Now I don't think it is quite that..could you explain please and is there some that are capable of accepting GSD by their sides...>>

They defend against GSDs and some funny looking breeds alike. The resemblance of a wolf seems to be irrelevant. My guard dogs seem to get along with the herding dogs that were there before them. They did not tolerate the ones that came after they established themselves.

<<All this concern for titles, I just love to see them work.>>

The establishment of titles has played a big role in preserving the working ability. If you skip titling you may lose that ability real fast. If I would be the only judge if my dogs are capable of doing the job I may lose that ability due to kennel blindness. Titling is by far not everything but it certainly is an important part of it.

<<I think it was the promoting that turned the tables here.>>

As far as self-promotion goes….what was your expectation? I run a business. I make my living raising sheep and training dogs. I have a mortgage to pay. And, being born and raised in Communism, I believe in Capitalism and business and free markets. I am not seeking fame, I am trying to make a living. That seems to disappoint you.

<<I have not seen livestock guardian dogs that are also (same dog) family companion dogs>>

That has become the issue that has been discussed very controversially. Some say if you teach your guard dog obedience, if you let the dog hang out with you, if you want the dog to be a companion dog as well – if you do any of the above your dog may still guard the livestock but will have the tendency to leave the flock to come to the house or to the people while it should guard. The other side says you can have indeed both. I am clearly in the former camp. I found that all those who stated that you can have both had a farm that was limited in size and certainly not a farm or ranch of several hundred acres or more and they were not in a situation where the dog had to stay with the flock that was a long distance away from the dwelling. In other words, if your livestock is right next to the house and is always there you can have both, a guard dog and a companion dog. If you want the dog to desire to stay with the flock when the flock is far away from home, don’t make a pet out of the dog,. It may leave the flock to come home at times.

My guard dog likes my kids and likes me but you cannot call the dog to you and you certainly cannot pet it. The previous one that I had was that way, too. It has served me well, I will keep it that way and will not be tempted to make a pet out o the guard dog.

Regarding protective behavior: being protective, whether the dog protects you or the flock or itself or the territory – it is clearly a form of aggression. Without aggression a guard dog would be useless. Aggression should not be seen as a negative, it is needed in many jobs a dog has to perform.

Very interesting stuff Ulf. 

Can you explain to us exactly how you go about training  the GP's to guard?  What age do you put them in with the sheep?  how do they react?  How do you go about feeding the GP's? how long does it take for them to bond to the sheep, and how do the sheep react to them?

When buying a guard dog, what qualities do you look for in a pup?  Or do you go by the parents?

Ulf,
I find you very interesting.  I enjoy reading your info as well as your prickly commentary.  I did have my dogs herding instinct tested by you about 6 years ago.  It was fun and very informative.  You did not really care for either of my dogs out of czech border patrol / czech working lines, but I respect your opinion.  Keep posting when you can, your willingness to share your knowledge is appreciated!!

Lyn

Lyn, can you share with us, what it was about your dogs that made them not suitable?

Thanks!