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by darylehret on 14 February 2010 - 01:02
Redirected back on topic would be nice, without all the distraction of justifications for breeding.
You can't tell the whole story from an early age, there's still much that will reveal itself later, after sexual maturity and in the process of training. The problem is, the ability to differentiate between what's genetic and what's environmental becomes a fuzzier picture as the dog progresses. When the producer of the pup is the one who actually raises the dog, then all the better. When the trainer/handler of the dog is the one producing with the dog in its adult life, then again, all the better. This is why it's often favored to find a breeder that works with their dogs, as they will have a much clearer picture of what was there to begin with, and what needed additional work to achieve the performance results they accomplished. In this way, they have a fuller understanding of what that dog's parents were able to produce, genetically, and what that dog should be able to produce, genetically. It also ensures that the breeder is well aware of the training requirements that will be necessary, and the training methods that will be employed for the job that the prospective buyer wishes to engage in.
Genetics will affect the potential outcome, but training finishes up the story. That's why the survey and the working trial are both significant. And by that, I'm not referring to merely schutzhund only! But, the subject of this thread pertains more to the survey, and as I've mentioned, I'd like to see a breed survey that puts more emphasis on the characteristics pertaining to working potential, aside from its already detailed focus in conformation. In that respect, the old DDR breed surveys and the Czech & Slovak surveys were an improvement IMO, but not by a lot, and basically only in protection related qualities.
One thing I feel is necessary, is to conduct the evaluations in a snapshot of time, prior to different levels of their progression in training. This helps to differentiate between what is natural and what is learned, what is genetic and what is due to imprinting, environmental conditioning and training. The producer doesn't pass on its training, but the inherent traits that made that training a success or failure.
You can't tell the whole story from an early age, there's still much that will reveal itself later, after sexual maturity and in the process of training. The problem is, the ability to differentiate between what's genetic and what's environmental becomes a fuzzier picture as the dog progresses. When the producer of the pup is the one who actually raises the dog, then all the better. When the trainer/handler of the dog is the one producing with the dog in its adult life, then again, all the better. This is why it's often favored to find a breeder that works with their dogs, as they will have a much clearer picture of what was there to begin with, and what needed additional work to achieve the performance results they accomplished. In this way, they have a fuller understanding of what that dog's parents were able to produce, genetically, and what that dog should be able to produce, genetically. It also ensures that the breeder is well aware of the training requirements that will be necessary, and the training methods that will be employed for the job that the prospective buyer wishes to engage in.
Genetics will affect the potential outcome, but training finishes up the story. That's why the survey and the working trial are both significant. And by that, I'm not referring to merely schutzhund only! But, the subject of this thread pertains more to the survey, and as I've mentioned, I'd like to see a breed survey that puts more emphasis on the characteristics pertaining to working potential, aside from its already detailed focus in conformation. In that respect, the old DDR breed surveys and the Czech & Slovak surveys were an improvement IMO, but not by a lot, and basically only in protection related qualities.
One thing I feel is necessary, is to conduct the evaluations in a snapshot of time, prior to different levels of their progression in training. This helps to differentiate between what is natural and what is learned, what is genetic and what is due to imprinting, environmental conditioning and training. The producer doesn't pass on its training, but the inherent traits that made that training a success or failure.
by Gustav on 14 February 2010 - 03:02
That's why I think it so important to get these dogs out early to see the degree of the "natural instinct". Take water or heights for instance. Some dogs when introduced at young ages will tolerate these two conditions but never be totally comfortable. Other dogs will show no concern for these two from a very early stage that will last for life. I agree with the breeder that keeps some of their dogs and trains into maturity as getting a continuim of knowledge. But often the things like water, heights, surfaces, and some noise sensitivites are being covered up with slick training and the owner not allowing the dogs to be exposed to the things either purposely or unknowingly. Still, I am curious about the dog's comfort zone with these aspects and I like to witness it myself because I can get a feel from the dogs body language if the dog is natural or made. Not always but many times.
by Prager on 14 February 2010 - 05:02
VomMarischal,
Gustav,
darylehret,
VomMarischal,
Held,
Elkoorr,
leeshideaway,
Jenni78
Luv k9
Thanks for the input. I will save everything said here and work with your valuable points.
That is what I was hoping for to hear. I and my friends in US and Europe are trying to device tests of genetics and to incorporate in it all these points. I also believe that SchH is valuable, but , beside many mentioned negatives it takes too long and leaves too many great dogs out of the genetic pool. Genetic pool of GSDs is getting narrower as we speak.
The biggest problem is to incorporate tests of natural inborn abilities. Tests for which the dog could not be trained. I have some on my mind. The biggest obstacle is to evaluate the genetics trades and not just the level of training.
My points are these:
1/ tests must be done before the dogs could be trained for it.
2/ tests must be done at different times of development of the dog. I think at 8mo, and at 1.5 years.
3/ Test must be simple to set up.
4/??? I am looking for other suggestions which should describe these tests in general terms..
darylehret Table is super! There are some points I would like to add:
Territoriality, defense drive (I guess would be your "civil" point), fight drive, willingness to investigate. alertness to invasion of territory and your point point I like very much is your Sound sensitivity. Today gun test promotes dumb, dole dogs.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com
by blair built gsd on 14 February 2010 - 05:02
Thank you for telling the truth we as breeders and buyers need to start useing these kind of test and understand that a title is cool and worth something but its not the end all be all other things come in to play
by VomMarischal on 14 February 2010 - 06:02
I am keeping two puppies out of my next litter. Looking forward to trying some of this stuff from birth. You know, I was always a little worried that the waddayacallit method of rearing a litter would have too much influence from birth and would prevent my getting a true reading on the dogs' temperaments. I kind of fiddled with it last time, you know rubbing their tummies with a cold rag, holding them upside down, that stuff, but honestly I burned out on it after about 3 days. Dogs turned out fine anyhow. Well, we'll see how it goes with the next lot. Haven't had a litter in 3 years and I'm really looking forward to trying out some testing on them. Hopefully they will be born in about 4 weeks (no I'm not advertising, they are not available).
by steve1 on 14 February 2010 - 07:02
by steve1 on 14 February 2010 - 07:02
Gustav
You ask what i was doing with Dogs around the 80's the above with this dog and another one, Sheep herding and competitions But of course that is i guess not training and working a dog from an 8 week old Pup so i guess it has no bearing on the working ability of dogs or handling of a Dog, unless it is with G.S dogs and Police work
Note only about 20 of those little trophies were by Dogs, there are a great deal more in there for other sports
Steve1
Just to add this you can aspire to do something all your life but still not be good at it meaning no matter how long you have done something it does not make you an expert on that subject
Now (Jim) Slamdunc for me does a really good Job first and hands on along with his great Dog that to me is something special and people like him doing that job
Of course i have never said that ScHh is the be all and end all of course it is not when you see the little Dogs in airports working that is great along with the Police work etc but too many on here down the Sch side of these Dogs as if it is so easy to train these Dogs from an 8 week old Pup and bring it along that is my gripe and mostly the ones who down it have never even tried it, Think of the work the people put in from the birth of a Pup and 3 to 4 years bring it to World class standard yet there work is downed by so many on here
Steve1
by darylehret on 14 February 2010 - 08:02
Territoriality is made up from a combination of the above component behaviors, prior experience (learned behavior), and often on a contextual basis, for what is of value to the dog. Territoriality of the property perimeter or livestock herd is useful, territory of the person or vehicle perhaps, territorial behavior of the couch or bed not so beneficial, except to the dog.
Fight persistance is listed.
Exploratory behavior fosters independance or aloofness to the handler, for whatever is of interest to the dog. Most trainers would want a dog that will seek out what and only when a handler designates. Environmental comfortability is great, but not a dog that likes to wander.
Also to note, is that certain behaviors can be counterproductive for particular kinds of work. Sound sensitivity is not something to wish for in a seeing eye dog. A livestock guardian dog should not be overpowered with preydrive to leave its flock defenseless to flanking predators. High suspicion in a therapy dog in a rest home could lead to tragic events. Civil/Aggression in a SAR dog is high potential for disaster. A problem solving dog left alone in the kitchen might mean going out for dinner.
An effective working evaluation is all depending on the various component behaviors that are combined, the job that's to be performed, the context in which the environment presents itself, the methods reinforced in training, the bond with the handler, and the handler's preference. That is more the scope of the above posted list, not so much as defining what's genetic or not. For example, "Restraint" was one item that is a learned behavior.
Since the dawn of history, breeders have had to rely on environmental stimuli to measure the inherent qualities of a dog. They couldn't take tissue samples, and do genotyping arrays. And even though science can now do this, they haven't got the least bit idea how to interpret any of this information, despite a few select loci here and there, mostly related to hereditary disease than any measure of genetics of behavior.
The problem this creates, is that in order for you to measure the dog by use of external stimuli, you are in effect at the same time reinforcing nerve structure, and creating programmed responses in the nervous system. It's a physics paradox, that the subject observed can never be completely unaffected by the observer. The ENS proceedures DO affect the pup, and puppy testing DOES affect the pup, it's unavoidable. There is such a thing as overstimulus, and understimulus as well. NOT socializing the dog or providing a variety of environmental exposures WILL affect it's overall behavior.
We just have to accept, that there is no perfect dog for every job, and no two dogs the same. You can always get closer to your ideal or further away, but never achieve complete perfection as you may see it, and in the meantime your ideals could change and so might your standards. The wonders of life are infinitely complex, and the map itself can never accurately represent the actual territory it covers!
Fight persistance is listed.
Exploratory behavior fosters independance or aloofness to the handler, for whatever is of interest to the dog. Most trainers would want a dog that will seek out what and only when a handler designates. Environmental comfortability is great, but not a dog that likes to wander.
Also to note, is that certain behaviors can be counterproductive for particular kinds of work. Sound sensitivity is not something to wish for in a seeing eye dog. A livestock guardian dog should not be overpowered with preydrive to leave its flock defenseless to flanking predators. High suspicion in a therapy dog in a rest home could lead to tragic events. Civil/Aggression in a SAR dog is high potential for disaster. A problem solving dog left alone in the kitchen might mean going out for dinner.
An effective working evaluation is all depending on the various component behaviors that are combined, the job that's to be performed, the context in which the environment presents itself, the methods reinforced in training, the bond with the handler, and the handler's preference. That is more the scope of the above posted list, not so much as defining what's genetic or not. For example, "Restraint" was one item that is a learned behavior.
Since the dawn of history, breeders have had to rely on environmental stimuli to measure the inherent qualities of a dog. They couldn't take tissue samples, and do genotyping arrays. And even though science can now do this, they haven't got the least bit idea how to interpret any of this information, despite a few select loci here and there, mostly related to hereditary disease than any measure of genetics of behavior.
The problem this creates, is that in order for you to measure the dog by use of external stimuli, you are in effect at the same time reinforcing nerve structure, and creating programmed responses in the nervous system. It's a physics paradox, that the subject observed can never be completely unaffected by the observer. The ENS proceedures DO affect the pup, and puppy testing DOES affect the pup, it's unavoidable. There is such a thing as overstimulus, and understimulus as well. NOT socializing the dog or providing a variety of environmental exposures WILL affect it's overall behavior.
We just have to accept, that there is no perfect dog for every job, and no two dogs the same. You can always get closer to your ideal or further away, but never achieve complete perfection as you may see it, and in the meantime your ideals could change and so might your standards. The wonders of life are infinitely complex, and the map itself can never accurately represent the actual territory it covers!
by Jyl on 15 February 2010 - 08:02
Someone wrote on here that ....90% of German Shepherds are bred as pets. I am going to quote what Max von Stephanitz has said....
""The breeding of Shepherd Dogs is the breeding of Working Dogs, and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce Shepherd Dogs." v Stephanitz
""The breeding of Shepherd Dogs is the breeding of Working Dogs, and this must always be the aim, or we shall cease to produce Shepherd Dogs." v Stephanitz
by darylehret on 15 February 2010 - 15:02
And it's important to remember that it's a breed that's intended to be versatile. That's why I slapped together the evaluation list. Not to categorize what's genetic or trained, but to identify the varied strengths and shortcomings of a particular dog for a particular type of work. Think of it not as a genetic résumé but as an working aptitude test, describing "29 dimensions of compatibility" for the working dog. Some of these itemizations are interrelated, some are components of a more complex behavior, some are context dependant, and other aspects are inherently at odds with each other.
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